A different WMI question re; it`s duty

[VoodooJef]

Like many of us here, I`ll be jumping to methanol injection here pretty soon. Totally hip to what it does and why. My question is this: is it used as an actual power adder, or more of a buffing agent? To be specific, let`s say I`m running setup "X", and tuned accordingly. I install a WMI kit and change nothing in the tune, so the WMI really acts as solely an intake charge cooler and the vehicle runs just fine without it, albeit not making as much power. Conversely, is it integrated into the tune and vehicle performance is dependent on it, and running dry could be disastrous?

 

[mangosmoothie]

You nailed it.

You can spray a D03 or D05 untuned to lower bats/clean valves. It'll keep HP somewhat consistent throughout temp changes, and might add 5-10 whp. But if it isn't spraying when it should, nothing is really affected except bats go up.

Or

You can spray a D07/D10 (depending on turbo/power) and have it integrated into your tune. You can run a more aggressive tune while spraying. But... If you ever DONT have methanol spraying when you should.... you could/probably would detonate. If you use 93 + meth and tune for it, you can see E33ish numbers.

I'm not sure what E85 + tuned Meth would do for a K04. I don't think it would be all that beneficial. That thing is pretty much maxed out. But when you switch to a bigger turbo, it very well could open windows. Redline makes great numbers with an S3+E85+Meth

 

[VoodooJef]

I am pretty sure I`ve all but maxed out the K04, so I`m not really interested in squeezing more power out of it with WMI. It`s on the table for when the new turbo arrives. I`d rather use it as a safety net/buffer rather than rely on it. For example if I can get 425hp out of the setup but it`s absolutely pushing IDC to the limit, the WMI can buffer it some and give the injectors more breathing room.

 

[EdgeAutosport.com]

I am pretty sure I`ve all but maxed out the K04, so I`m not really interested in squeezing more power out of it with WMI. It`s on the table for when the new turbo arrives. I`d rather use it as a safety net/buffer rather than rely on it. For example if I can get 425hp out of the setup but it`s absolutely pushing IDC to the limit, the WMI can buffer it some and give the injectors more breathing room.

Definitely not a bad idea to use it as a buffer, but you will need a significant amount to help with IDC's. At that point, you are relying on it. A smaller nozzle that you don't need to tune for will help cool the air charge and by extension give you a bit more power, or at least more consistent power, especially in hotter weather, but a small nozzle will not give you much in the way of added fuel headroom.

The real benefit to meth, though you would be needing to rely on it, is running enough to get a decent octane boost that will allow you to run more spark advance without loosing fuel headroom. For instance, running E30 takes about 10% more fuel. So you get more detonation protection and run more spark advance, but you can't run as much boost so there are diminishing returns. With meth, you gain the octane but don't loose the ability to run a touch higher boost and can therefore make quite a bit more power.

Running Meth on top of an Ethanol mix might not seem to make a lot of sense since you can easily reach MBT with enough Ethanol, however, if you are running enough meth to make up the ~10% fuel lost from E30, you will be able to run more boost, and you have the Ethanol to help protect you should the meth suddenly quit working.

 

[VoodooJef]

Cool, thanks for that post. I`m running Ethanol (mixed) now. Even with the fairly high power figures we squeezed out of the K04 (good lord the torque LOL), my IDC never even hits 100. I think about 98 is the highest I`ve seen. The turbo I`m going with will easily support 425hp, and if that`s going to be my goal I`d rather not have the fuel injectors going beyond the call of duty (see what I did there?) every time I get on it.

 

[Jeff23spl]

For a k04, a methanol cooling setup is interresting for stability and push it a little more without using high octane fuel...I started using it because i just have 91 and no ethanol in my area...So 50% meth was perfect to stabilize my BAT and worked well with a small jet.

When you get BT, you can reach the fuel Di injector limit. As said above, That limit is reduced as much as you increase ethanol content in your tank because you need to inject more fluid to get the same energy from it...Using water/meth to achieve the same knock reduction will let you use full injector flow and the small amount added by the methanol can be enough to reach a mid-size goal...

Remember Meth give about 2/3 the energy of fuel so with a 50/50 mix, you need a faily high amount to increase your afr. a 500cc jet give just 250cc meth so a 160-170cc of real fuel against the 4 dizi injector...(nothing to really affect the AFR tunning)

When you start relying on meth is time to think about a way to make it failsafe. There is few mean like the minimum of using a float to know when it is empty. AEM use flow meter to monitor flow and check if being under specs...I read about manny issue with the sensor when meth content increase...So other brands use to monitor pump current that can return the same effect...You can then connect an output to a relay that disable your EBCS and drop boost to spring pressure...

When choosing the way of controlling it is important to think about the use. A controller triggered by boost will do ok with a cooling system but if it is for adding fuel...Boost can be the same at 3500 than 6500 but the fuel request is a lot different. So a maf reading is to my personal opinion better.
Than most of the basic system use pump speed to control the flow...Between gear shift, if you have a large jet, meth continue to flow for a little while and it make your car rich at this point. Some controller comes with an output to connect a solenoid valve that will open and close to stop flow even if the pump inertia continue to pump fluid...The solenoid is also a safety to avoid hydrolock if the fluid fill up the engine by a check valve leak etc...

Keep in mind adding a fuel injectors to add fuel remain the best option ut meth can fill the needs for a little amount...
I'm not sure yet about tunning for it but i expect it would be done by reducing the MAF scaling in the tune but i don't know yet if there is a way to approximate the amount or airflow to reduce based on the amount of meth you are injecting...But this is also another point against a boost based meth control, if it read boost, you won't know where in the maf scale you should reduce airflow...

 

[Redline]

Hey Jeff,

Like we talked about today, 425whp is possible on straight 93, but you'll need a big enough turbo to facilitate this without eating up fueling headroom with ethanol or having to use auxiliary fueling through methanol. I saw a guy make ~500whp on 93. He was on a built motor, though, and since our 93 sucks so much in Texas, I don't think that's a realistic goal for you. Even with decent fuel quality, folks on GT3071r turbos can usually only hit about 350whp on 93.

If you want 425whp and especially if you want to retain responsiveness (by not choosing a huge turbo), you'll need aux fueling for sure. Even on a mild E25 mix, we can only hit ~370-380 on a decently responding turbo, like a BNR S3, GTX2867r, etc., before we run out of headroom. And that's with the extra timing availed through the alky in your tank. To do it on 93 with TX fuel quality is impossible, IMHO, especially with our crappy fuel, like I mentioned.

I'd just run in-tank ethanol and a CM10 or CM14 to hit 425 with 100% methanol. You will have to be tuned for it, and you will be fueling dependent. These cars simply just don't have enough fueling headroom to hit 425 on 93 yet still remain responsive. You'll likely need at least a 35-frame turbo, and it'll be a dog around town. Plus, 425whp is a LOT of heat for stock rings to handle with zero alky flowing to keep the combustion chamber cool and safe. You very well likely may get rind-end butting and pop a ringland; then you'll need to look at rebuilding the motor.

Maybe @Atvfreek or @Jason@DizzyTuning can jump in here and give you a pro opinion far beyond my level of knowledge.