In Tank Methanol & Big power?

BuddySpeed3

BuddySpeed3

Greenie N00B Member
Greenie Member
Hey everyone, for those of us without access to E85, In Tank Methanol seems to be the next best thing, and aside from Methanol being more corrosive than Ethanol, low concentrations have been proven to increase octane very well without any issues. I had been running 2 gallons of In Tank Methanol in my Gen 1 for over 3 years, and even started running a few tanks with 3 gallons. I was able to make 405 whp on the dyno before the stock engine decided to throw a rod. Aux fueling was delivered through 6th port injection, being fed from the same stock fuel tank.

When it comes to Ethanol, we know that a concentration greater than 50% can cause the HPFP to gunk up. I would assume that this is also the case with a 50% Methanol mix, but due to Methanol's corrosive properties, a 50% mix may be too much for comfort. We know that many people make big power with Ethanol mixes, but what about Methanol mixes in sub 50% concentrations? It doesn't seem to be as popular as E85 mixes, but for those us interested, we need more info!

For people making big power with In Tank Methanol, please post what vehicle you have, your turbo setup, % of In Tank Methanol (and how long you've been running it), and how much WHP/TQ you make. For example:

2009 Mazdaspeed 3
BNR S4 V3
20.68% Methanol (over 3 years)
405 whp / 350 ft lbs
 
I dont know anyone running high amounts of meth, except for those guys that run PI with a separate tank for the methanol.

The two big issues are as you stated how corrosive it is, and also cost per gallon.

I'd be interested also just for knowledge, I know for a while a few years ago, there were a few guys running a couple of gallons but all that info stayed on the old forum.

@VTMongoose
Didnt you run in tank meth for a while?
 
If only freek was on here I think he tuned with meth in tank for a good while some but not much info was on the old forum in the early days too so might have to pm him directly for his conclusion on this
 
At a certain point you're going to get to being pretty much knockproof. Even at like E30 our cars are essentially knockproof. I'm not sure how much meth it'd take to get the same knock resistance, but that'd probably be a good starting point. I'm running e54 at over 500whp and have no knock issues, but I only run that much because that's what comes out of the pump here. I'd be running e30 if I had to do a mix.

The moral of the story here is, I doubt you need 50% methanol, but not many people have bothered with in tank meth. You should also look at the oil testing thread here. There are oils that really help with black death in the hpfp. I've been running Royal Purple and haven't had my HPFP gunk up at all since my build.
 
Mauro_Penguin said:
The two big issues are as you stated how corrosive it is, and also cost per gallon.
I'd be interested also just for knowledge, I know for a while a few years ago, there were a few guys running a couple of gallons but all that info stayed on the old forum.
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If I remember correctly some stated that 2 gallons of in tank methanol provided more octane than 3 gallons of e85 based on less knock observed. I believe it was @phate; that carried out tests with the seals/o-rings in our stock fuel system, where they were soaked in 93 pump gas mixed with varying methanol percentages for several days. The higher the methanol concentration, the more the seals would expand, but when taken out of solution, they would return to normal size. From what I recall, the highest concentration tested was 50% methanol. One thing to note was that pump gas alone also caused the seals/o-rings to expand, but not nearly as much as the 50% mix.

Methyl Hydrate can be bought by the gallon at some local hardware stores such as Home Depot or Canadian Tire. Cost per gallon is roughly $10 bucks, and although this sounds like a lot, you end up saving on the pump gas that it replaces. So rough math tells me that when mixing 3 gallons, I'm only paying about $15 or so bucks more per tank depending on gas prices.

VashEXE said:
At a certain point you're going to get to being pretty much knockproof. Even at like E30 our cars are essentially knockproof. I'm not sure how much meth it'd take to get the same knock resistance, but that'd probably be a good starting point. I'm running e54 at over 500whp and have no knock issues, but I only run that much because that's what comes out of the pump here. I'd be running e30 if I had to do a mix.

The moral of the story here is, I doubt you need 50% methanol, but not many people have bothered with in tank meth. You should also look at the oil testing thread here. There are oils that really help with black death in the hpfp. I've been running Royal Purple and haven't had my HPFP gunk up at all since my build.
Click to expand...

Awesome I'll check that thread out. How long have you been running e54 with the new build? I like knock proof :)

Between methanol and ethanol, I have no idea which has a higher octane, but ethanol mixes and meth injection have been proven over and over to make big power. Some dragsters and hot rods even run on straight methanol, so the octane is there, it's just how much someone is willing to mix in. I happen to think that anything below a 50% methanol mix would not cause any problems with the fuel system in terms or corrosion if the car is driven regularly, as I don't think there are any components distinctly susceptible to corrosion, although I could be wrong. What I can see is that our fuel tank is plastic, our fuel lines are plastic, and our o-rings and seals are designed for fuel. If I'm not mistaken there are also additives in the pump gas that help keep things in the fuel system protected.

If you think about it, winter rated windshield washer fluid has roughly 45-50% methanol in it based on msds sheets, and it's stored in 1 gallon plastic jugs without issues. Maybe there's a reason why washer fluid manufacturers don't go past 50%. Maybe it's because past that, it gets corrosive on the vehicles exterior? This is why I think issues may arise with mixes above 50% in the fuel system. That being said, I wouldn't want to run 50%. I was running 20%, so stepping up to 30-40% might be something I'm willing to try when I get the car back on the road.

aaronc7 said:
When I talked to VP about this, they were worried about gasoline and methanol separating at these mix levels if it sat in the tank for too long. Any issues with that?
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This is true, phase separation can even happen with ethanol mixes from what I've read. As a test I mixed pump gas and methyl hydrate (methanol) together in an empty water bottle. They appear to mix flawlessly, but as soon as I added water and shook it up, you could see distinct separation occurring. I then added some STP fuel stabilizer which solved the issue. Interestingly, phase separation didn't happen with just a few drops of water. It took at least 1/8 of the bottle before it started to separate. So if the vehicle isn't sitting for too long and is being driven often, I doubt water will have much of a chance to accumulate in the tank. I think the best thing to do with ethanol and methanol mixes is to run a few tanks of straight pump gas to flush out all the alcohol prior to seasonal storage, and use a fuel stabilizer.
 
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BuddySpeed3 said:
If I remember correctly some stated that 2 gallons of in tank methanol provided more octane than 3 gallons of e85 based on less knock observed. I believe it was @phate; that carried out tests with the seals/o-rings in our stock fuel system, where they were soaked in 93 pump gas mixed with varying methanol percentages for several days. The higher the methanol concentration, the more the seals would expand, but when taken out of solution, they would return to normal size. From what I recall, the highest concentration tested was 50% methanol. One thing to note was that pump gas alone also caused the seals/o-rings to expand, but not nearly as much as the 50% mix.

Methyl Hydrate can be bought by the gallon at some local hardware stores such as Home Depot or Canadian Tire. Cost per gallon is roughly $10 bucks, and although this sounds like a lot, you end up saving on the pump gas that it replaces. So rough math tells me that when mixing 3 gallons, I'm only paying about $15 or so bucks more per tank depending on gas prices.



Awesome I'll check that thread out. How long have you been running e54 with the new build? I like knock proof :)

Between methanol and ethanol, I have no idea which has a higher octane, but ethanol mixes and meth injection have been proven over and over to make big power. Some dragsters and hot rods even run on straight methanol, so the octane is there, it's just how much someone is willing to mix in. I happen to think that anything below a 50% methanol mix would not cause any problems with the fuel system in terms or corrosion if the car is driven regularly, as I don't think there are any components distinctly susceptible to corrosion, although I could be wrong. What I can see is that our fuel tank is plastic, our fuel lines are plastic, and our o-rings and seals are designed for fuel. If I'm not mistaken there are also additives in the pump gas that help keep things in the fuel system protected.

If you think about it, winter rated windshield washer fluid has roughly 45-50% methanol in it based on msds sheets, and it's stored in 1 gallon plastic jugs without issues. Maybe there's a reason why washer fluid manufacturers don't go past 50%. Maybe it's because past that, it gets corrosive on the vehicles exterior? This is why I think issues may arise with mixes above 50% in the fuel system. That being said, I wouldn't want to run 50%. I was running 20%, so stepping up to 30-40% might be something I'm willing to try when I get the car back on the road.



This is true, phase separation can even happen with ethanol mixes from what I've read. As a test I mixed pump gas and methyl hydrate (methanol) together in an empty water bottle. They appear to mix flawlessly, but as soon as I added water and shook it up, you could see distinct separation occurring. I then added some STP fuel stabilizer which solved the issue. Interestingly, phase separation didn't happen with just a few drops of water. It took at least 1/8 of the bottle before it started to separate. So if the vehicle isn't sitting for too long and is being driven often, I doubt water will have much of a chance to accumulate in the tank. I think the best thing to do with ethanol and methanol mixes is to run a few tanks of straight pump gas to flush out all the alcohol prior to seasonal storage, and use a fuel stabilizer.
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I've been running e mixes ranging from e30-e54 for the majority of the car's life. I've been running e54 on my built motor for about a year and a half now. At a certain point, it's actually a bit of a bad thing to have too much e, since it eats up more injector duty cycle than regular gas does.

As far as the manufacturers not going past 50% meth mixes, that's because running a 50% meth to water mix greatly reduces the chance that it'll ignite on accident and cause one of those scary invisible fires that meth is known for.

Realistically, if you're not having any knock issues at the top of your RPM range and your timing/power is where you want it to be, I see no reason to make any changes to your mixture. You don't inherently just get more power from having more octane or alcohol content, you get power from being able to increase your timing more and that means knock if you don't have enough octane to handle it. At a certain point though, you're going to hit MBT and not be able to increase your timing anymore anyways and then it'll just be a waste of money to be putting more meth in the tank.
 
VashEXE said:
I've been running e mixes ranging from e30-e54 for the majority of the car's life. I've been running e54 on my built motor for about a year and a half now. At a certain point, it's actually a bit of a bad thing to have too much e, since it eats up more injector duty cycle than regular gas does.

As far as the manufacturers not going past 50% meth mixes, that's because running a 50% meth to water mix greatly reduces the chance that it'll ignite on accident and cause one of those scary invisible fires that meth is known for.

Realistically, if you're not having any knock issues at the top of your RPM range and your timing/power is where you want it to be, I see no reason to make any changes to your mixture. You don't inherently just get more power from having more octane or alcohol content, you get power from being able to increase your timing more and that means knock if you don't have enough octane to handle it. At a certain point though, you're going to hit MBT and not be able to increase your timing anymore anyways and then it'll just be a waste of money to be putting more meth in the tank.
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I agree 100%. I'm just not sure if a 20% methanol mix will be enough to completely eliminate knock with my BNR S4 v3 nearly maxed out at 450 whp. I guess I'll have to do some tuning to find out what percentage of in tank methanol will satisfy :D

From what I remember on Tuned By Nishan's youtube channel, his Gen 2 ms3 runs on e50, and makes 700 whp. If e50 can do that, I doubt an m50 mix will be required for a 450 whp goal, but like you said, it's just a matter of determining what percentage of alcohol will be required to prevent knock with a given setup through the tuning process. I really do love how awesome this platform is :)
 
phate said:
Just calculate pure ethanol as 160 octane, and pure methanol as 180 octane. Then you have a direct comparison of mixes depending on what gasoline octane you mix with.
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Does Methanol have a higher octane than Ethanol? Stoichiometrically, the AFR for Methanol is richer than Ethanol, but I've been dialing in my MAF curve on straight 94 pump gas, and then plugging in corresponding values into my tune from the Scalar Cheat Sheet (originally posted on the other forum) to compensate when mixing Methanol. If I'm not mistaken, it was intended for Ethanol mixes, assuming E10 is used as the base fuel. I find that the Long Term Fuel Trims, and AFR's at WOT after mixing Methanol are pretty spot on using these values, and the MAF curve doesn't require much of a tweak afterwards.
 

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