Air/Water intercooler

[MadMike]

Sooo submited an idea to CS about making a air/water intercooler chilled via A/C for the Speed3 but I haven’t gotten a reply yet. Being drunk when I tapped it out might have something to do with that. Guess I’ll have piece meal the thing together myself
I actually want to make a unit that would chill the intake air before the Turbo and MAF and after the turbo. However none of the air/water intercoolers that I have found would allow me to do it with the space I have. Ones that would don’t meet the CFM needed. It can be done, and there is room but I don’t have the time and resources to build one. So that leaves me with cooling the compressed air only.
By itself, the Air/Water intercooler will do better than any large air cooled intercooler. Cooler temps, less psi drop, less piping and quicker response time = more power, faster.
Where and How I plan on doing this will come later. Until then I need to clean out my garage to make room for this and other projects.

 

[Enki]

You've made a lot of assumptions here; I'll save you some time and fill in some blanks for you:

1. In order to leverage the AC for cooling down the boost charge, you're going to need a *large* reservoir of water and to spend a long time with the AC on to cool it. Running the AC while at higher than ~4500 RPM is going to cause the compressor to shut off (like what happens when you do a pull with it on, it will blow hot shortly thereafter) if it doesn't overrun the condenser.

2. There's no need to cool the air before the MAF; if you're looking to increase the efficiency of the turbo, there's much, much better ways of accomplishing this (easiest being to get a bigger turbo)

3. An air/water intercooler is quite capable of exceeding the cooling capacity of an air/air unit; you are correct on that, however, certain conditions must be met for that to happen. You basically either need an ice box (which is a better idea than using the AC IMHO) or you need a heat exchanger that's the size of the radiator and about half the thickness (and this will get you closer to ambient, but never sub-ambient).

4. If you're really serious about your focus of cooler temps and less piping, you should go vertical flow IC with lots of meth. Chemical intercooling is just as viable (and less difficult with one major exception) to implement as what you're suggesting here, but would probably cost a lot less.

Nice first post though, and RIP inspections (no CARB sticker on that stuff = no bueno if you ever get caught).

 

[MadMike]

You've made a lot of assumptions here; I'll save you some time and fill in some blanks for you:

1. In order to leverage the AC for cooling down the boost charge, you're going to need a *large* reservoir of water and to spend a long time with the AC on to cool it. Running the AC while at higher than ~4500 RPM is going to cause the compressor to shut off (like what happens when you do a pull with it on, it will blow hot shortly thereafter) if it doesn't overrun the condenser.

2. There's no need to cool the air before the MAF; if you're looking to increase the efficiency of the turbo, there's much, much better ways of accomplishing this (easiest being to get a bigger turbo)

3. An air/water intercooler is quite capable of exceeding the cooling capacity of an air/air unit; you are correct on that, however, certain conditions must be met for that to happen. You basically either need an ice box (which is a better idea than using the AC IMHO) or you need a heat exchanger that's the size of the radiator and about half the thickness (and this will get you closer to ambient, but never sub-ambient).

4. If you're really serious about your focus of cooler temps and less piping, you should go vertical flow IC with lots of meth. Chemical intercooling is just as viable (and less difficult with one major exception) to implement as what you're suggesting here, but would probably cost a lot less.

Nice first post though, and RIP inspections (no CARB sticker on that stuff = no bueno if you ever get caught).

Thank you for this! This is exactly what I’m trying to map out.
Ok let me go through this... brain storming so..
1. I want a set up for the street and not track or drag strip so I’m not looking at extended high rpms. I’m also not looking to do clutch dumps or hard starts. So that said the A/C should do fine. I bought a Killer Chiller, was looking at a dual unit but thought that might be a bit much both in fitment and cost. Once again no prolonged use.
2. I reckoned that a cooler air temp before the turbo and MSF would do 2 things. Lower the temp the compressed air starts from and doing it before the MAF would help the ECU register it and adjust accordingly ( or is this NA engines only?)
3. What if you added the radiator to cool it initially and then ran it through the Killer Chiller then into the air/water intercooler? It would reduce the load withon the KillerChiller and increase resivor capacity.
4. I’m also planning on a 50 meth/water injection after an enlarged TB. Would help
This leads me to my other product idea. A larger windshield wiper fluid resivoir for meth water injection.

Ok I’m exhausted going to sleep

 

[Shwa]

As far as the larger windshield washer reservoir, the Canadian speeds (and maybe regular MZ3s too) have a 1 gallon capacity reservoir. It's what i'm using for my meth setup.

I bought it years ago off a guy on the other forum, not sure how he got his hands on it.

 

[Enki]

Some counterpoints:

1. More RPM with the same gearing makes you faster; more rpm = more better (at least till you can't afford to go higher)

2. The turbo doesn't really care about the temperature of the air going through it, but it will add heat on compression. The best way to get around this is with water injection right into the blades (literally having a nozzle a few MM away from the center of the compressor). You only need this if your turbo is maxed out on flow and you need a little bit more out of it (like for class limited racing). This will eventually destroy the compressor though, so not ideal for the street.

3. With air/water intercoolers there are pretty much 2 types: those that run ice boxes and no heat exchanger, and those that run exchangers and no ice boxes. If you run both, your ice water will pick up heat from the exchanger (because if the water is colder than ambient of course it will do that), limiting longevity of that ice batch.

4. I would run the WMI before the throttle body to give it more time to pick up heat from the air stream (if your goal is cooling only). This was my chemical intercooling setup:

You'll notice I put the WMI nozzles (2 of them) on 2" pipe and pretty far away from the throttle body. Any step up in pipe diameter is going to result in a slight and momentary pressure drop, which also reduces heat of the decompressed media slightly. This is why you want to spray as far back as safely possible.

Oh, and you won't need a larger throttle body till you start approaching somewhere around 600-800 WHP or so.

As for the larger washer reservoir, @Shwa is correct. I had mine imported from Canada (via Edge Autosport) and it bolted right in. Found out the other day it actually holds *slightly* less than a gallon when filled to the brim. If you pair this with another 3qt/1gallon tank you can put that on the drivers side with the pump and run lines to join them without any real issues.

I'm not sure if your goal is to just be different; if that's the case, then disregard and go for it. If your goal is to make a bunch of free power efficiently, you'd gain a LOT more by simply adding ethanol to the fuel tank and getting tuned for that (like, not even joking here, ethanol does crazy shit for these engines), or by running a bigger turbo and gaining thermal and flow efficiency there.

Oh, and if you're interested in seeing how to properly set up an air/water intercooler (as far as intercooler and exchanger sizing goes), look no further than computer watercooling. The fin area on those is generally no larger than a quarter (and twice as tall), but the radiators are quite a bit larger. Then, you need to look at thermal loading (in watts TDP) that they can handle and if you're lucky, you can find information regarding radiator temps for that all important delta temp. It's all the same theory, but with a significantly larger thermal load being needed for cars.

 

[MadMike]

Thank you guys so much an intelligent conversation on this! Sorry I’m using my phone and I’m not real ssvay on the whole forum platform. Also I don’t want or mean to come off as a stickup knowit all asshole, I just want to apply the knowledge and engineering stuff I know to stuff that I don’t. That’s were you guys come in. I’ve always done things differently, and usually on my own. I can’t help but to look at things and think of how to make it better, simpler and/or more efficient. Doing it my own way usually negates the “simpler” aspect of it.
Ok going through the numbers:
1. Not sure what you mean but I want to keep my power in the low rpm range and not have to whined it out above 7000 for top power. Side note- I would love a taller 6th gear.
2. Cold air is more dense and has more oxygen. This is one reason why we cool it after the turbo. So I want to start with that before I compress it. More to begin with means more when it’s compressed.
Anything that will help reduce heat (or more importantly heat range cycle) in any moving component will increase its longevity and give room for more power.
As far as the charge air, I’m thinking by making it cooler before it’s compressed it will reduce the temperature of the compressed air which in turn will reduce the load on the air/water intercooler which in turn means even denser air going to the engine. Best example I can give is putting octane booster in 91 octane vs 87 octane.
3. I’ll be running a killer chiller. It is a small water reservoir tank (or 2) that is cooled by tapping into your A/Clines. I.E. it will always be well below ambient temps except when you first start your car and A/C. This works great for a daily (especially in SoCal!!!) and when starting off after sitting at a light.
4. Spraying before the turbo especially just in front of it is bad ju-ju for your compressor according to Snow Performance’s research and turbo manufacturers. Longevity and reliability is my goal while also increasing performance but not having to hunt down or plan my refuels with E85. I Also don’t want to have to add anything to my gas ( mixing it like a 2 stroke). Topping off the windshield wiper reservoir with 30/70 or 50/50 mix is fine but I want my ECU to realize if that tank is empty and automatically switch to a map that doesn’t require it. This has already been done but the software only works with a 3 bar MAP sensor. This is fine for the turbo and pressures I want to run (CST4). Bosch makes one but it’s not plug and play, I would have to splice it.
**Sorry but Im cringing at the photo because you have your air filter high up in the engine bay instead of being down by the fog light. I have my intake tubing wrapped in a thermal blanket to keep the heat off of it before it hits the MAF.**
For air/water intercooler data I’m using Frozen Boost info on their intercoolers. They give the CFM data which is the most important thing, 650 min for this application goining off of info from CS short ram intake. Coiling data is me eyeballing the amount of surface area the air will move through and YouTube results on various air/water intercoolers of the same or similar design.
So in summary I want RELIABLE POWER on a DAILY and CONSISTENT basis.

 

[MadMike]

Ohhh and thank you for the heads up on the TB. But CS is saying just using theirs would increase performance ( chart included in their page). I know everyone is trying to tout gains to increase sales but this IS something I’m curious about and don’t have anything to bounce it off of.
Also the spacer AFTER the TB seems to be the only easy option I’ve seen on the market so far.
Is there a good reason to have it before the TB? If so is it easier/ cheaper or same cost to install in this fashion. I’ve read it should not be put in just before the intercooler because of condensation pooling at extended lower RPMs. And then getting sucked up at higher RPMs.

 

[SharksInSpace]

The consensus has pretty much been that the turbo superheats the hair to such an extent that reducing temps in the intake ultimately shows a negligible decrease in BAT, nor a measurable increase in performance. If a cold air intake vs short ram was truly beneficial, it would be the standard option for anyone making big power on the platform, but that simply hasn't been shown to be the case.

 

[MadMike]

The consensus has pretty much been that the turbo superheats the hair to such an extent that reducing temps in the intake ultimately shows a negligible decrease in BAT, nor a measurable increase in performance. If a cold air intake vs short ram was truly beneficial, it would be the standard option for anyone making big power on the platform, but that simply hasn't been shown to be the case.

Give peace a chance man ( peace sign).
Sorry I’m a bit of a smart ass.
Ok so CS did a study on their Ram Air intake (using the hood scoop solely for air) and their Short Ram intake on a stock turbo.
https://corksport.com/blog/flow-test-results-–-mazdaspeed-3-fmic-for-sri-vs-ram-air/
So the larger amount of air (40% over stock) made a positive impact on performance gains. BUTTTTT The design they have didn’t allow as much air flow as their short ram (54% increase over stock). So the short ram showed a 14% increase in air flow. What they didn’t report is what difference that colder air from the hood ram made to the hp gains. I believe this would lower the % difference between the two ESPECIALLY if driving at highway speeds where the engine is getting hot.
Colder air getting forced through an air filter instead of just hot air being sucked through it.
Ok...So let’s put the best of both worlds together.
COLD HIGH AIR FLOW
.....I know...
.....It hasn’t really been done before...
And plenty of people have been in the business of making power with the current set up with no problems so why question it?!
..... because it’s my nature to do so.
And the technology and ability to do it is already out there, but people ( and industries) are set in their ways.
Except for the Dodge Demon.

 

[Enki]

1. Basically, higher RPM means you need *less* torque to go just as fast due to gearing advantage. Less HP/TQ = less airflow = less pressure = higher efficiency. For more information, either read my thread or check out the engineering explained YouTube video on Formula 1 vs NASCAR. Also, a taller 6th gear would likely take you out of the optimum efficiency at highway speeds.

2. The gains from cooling the air pre compression are subject to the limitations of physics. I was running 2 GPH (which is a lot) pre turbo methanol injection and the gains from that were minimal at best, or within the margin of error at worst. In order to make proper use of pre-cooling (basically, seeing real benefits), you'll need to be near the end of the compressor map. Also, I'm fully aware of the physics behind how engines work.

Again, a splash of corn in these engines will give you all the knock proofing you need. In a DI application (like for these engines), the *effective* octane rating of e100 is somewhere around 160. Generally speaking, you only need around e30 to be able to add so much timing that you *lose* power. The difference here is so drastic, it allows a stock turbo car on full e85 to ream the ass out of a big turbo car on pump gas (stock fueling + HPFP internals only for both). Out of curiosity, just how much research have you done on these cars?

You're right that it will reduce the thermal load on the LAIC; however, the gains from this will be offset by the fact that you're basically going to be running AC full time to cool the water. That extra load is not only going to cost you power, it's going to hurt your overall efficiency as well.

3. I'm aware of what these are. I don't think you fully grasp the amount of thermal mass you're going to have to cool to make this work, however. I really don't want to do the math for this, but suffice it to say you might get *one* third gear pull through (and it will likely shut the compressor off) before you have to sit and let the AC cool the water down again, depending on your total thermal mass. Not only that, but it's gonna take a while to do it. Meanwhile, all that heat the AC is pumping is going to be at least partially fed into the radiator...so there's that too.

4. I'm well aware of that. My pre-turbo setup didn't actually help that much for efficiency (because my bottleneck was the hotside). Unfortunately, automatic map switching ain't gonna happen on stock ECU...Like, at all.

Do you realize how much air flows through a turbo? That setup in the "cringey" photo made 400 WHP; basically an effective displacement of 6 liters. The air going through it was basically equivalent to having a window down at 80 MPH; using turbo blankets and all that isn't going to do much, nor is placement, as it will take half a second (on spoolup) to swap the air from the entire engine bay (which I doubt has more than 10 cubic feet of empty volume, which is about what I was flowing at peak power). Also, I've run both a CAI and a custom short ram (like you see in the pic). The shorter intake with fewer bends and larger filter will always flow more (and thus make more power) than a longer intake with bends and the same size air filter, even if it manages to pull slightly cooler air.

Also, generally speaking, when you want reliability you don't add complexity, and in hot climates, it's generally better to give the radiator all the cool air it can get (rather than adding additional load to the exchanger and thus, dumping that at least partially into the radiator).

As for the CS throttle body...Yeah, they want you to buy one. The thing is, if you don't tune for it, you won't get shit. Factory spec, these engines are load tuned. That means they adapt to changing conditions (including airflow) and will wind up making stock HP and torque (or potentially throwing error codes and going into limp mode if it can't compensate for that). Protip: This is the same company that had to change documentation for their HPFP internals because I caught them in a marketing lie (at worst; at best they didn't know what they were talking about...or would that be at worst?).

As for the CS study, do you know why they didn't compare the effect of temp variance between ram air and standard SRI? Because the difference would be within the margin of error. I think you might be forgetting that as delta temperatures rise, you can pull more heat out of a thermal exchange system (like an intercooler). Thus, the gains from cooling the inlet air before you compress it and then intercool it is minimal at best (unless your turbo is so far out of efficiency that cooling that air increases efficiency of the system, in which case you're running the wrong turbo).

Funny you should mention the Demon. It's got some issues with the setup, which basically means it's not really much more than a gimmick that's "good enough" for a quarter mile pass in cooler weather. The problem is that the AC compressor is going to turn off past a certain RPM (4500 in the case of the Demon), and not only that, its basically only providing a thermal mass buffer because the intercooler setup isn't big enough to work properly.

I actually think this is going to be overall less reliable, less sustained performance, WAY less efficiency, and probably more expensive than a "standard" setup. Speaking of which, if you meant to insinuate that the rest of us are lemmings and/or plebeians because we "choose to follow what works" then you probably haven't read any of the build threads on this forum.

I guess all these unlimited budget racing teams should look to using AC systems in their race cars instead of cheaping out and using bigass boxes full of ice and water (which basically all hot and melted after each run).

 

[MadMike]

Thank you! and sorry. Now I’m cringing at MY post. My ramblings are more me talking it out, what’s going on in my head and why I thinking what I’m thinking. Basically I’m throwing it all out there ( no real filter) so someone can explain why it is, or is not, a good idea. Which your sir, have done in a very professional manner. Thank you for taking the time to type that response out!!
Sorry I come off sounding like a prick and I really do appreciate the constructive conversation.
Now I need to go back and read through your post a couple more times and take some notes. I’ll probably have some more questions. But I’ll read up on some more builds first.

 

[MadMike]

Ok random thought purge again. Apologies in advance.
So Enki, Am I looking at your pic correctly? You’re not even running an intercooler?! Just water/meth from 2 nozzles mid turbo and TB with an increase in pipe diameter to cool it down. That is interesting! So many questions...
Ok so I wouldn’t run the Air/Water with a heat exchanger only the Killer Chiller, which would be more like an ice box set up. The coolent storage capcity is smaller but it is regenerating. However like you said with the Demon, it’s only good for a short pass at WOT before it’s no longer effective and needs to cool down again. I read up that using one with a heat exchanger will kill your A/C performance inside the car. Can’t afford to do that in SoCal! Killer Chiller also has a double set up for higher boost or longer runs (but not both).
So that got me thinking what if I keep my Top Mount IC and then run it through the air/water intercooler, mounted where the battery currently is ( move it to the trunk) then WM spray after the TB.
Another thought, the added load on the AC radiator with the Killer Chiller. Yes it might be hotter but if I put a heat exchanger or an intercooler in front of it, the heat from that plus the reduced airflow because of it may actually be worse or just as bad
And then I realize..... wow I made all of this really complicated! Is that juice worth the squeeze. Probably just need to get a new engine and turbo, hook it up, tune it and drive and enjoy. Save the upgrades for latter.

 

[Easter Bunny]

For all of that work just get a bigger more efficient turbo

 

[neganox]

So that got me thinking what if I keep my Top Mount IC and then run it through the air/water intercooler, mounted where the battery currently is ( move it to the trunk) then WM spray after the TB.

Whoa. You could just do a single WMI nozzle tapped into your topmount's cold pipe controlled by a hobbs switch and call it a day for like 300 bucks.