CPe safe seals vs CS tokay seals

Redline said:
Think they're re-installable? Misanthropy aside, Tokay designed some good seals. They're what I'd choose.
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That has been my understanding as well.
78jdbronco said:
Yes, cpe was the injector seal leader for a while. Then people started putting miles on them, testing for multiple years, and THEN found the problems. In typical msf fashion, it was bandwagon real hard then mass bashing at first sign of trouble.

That's a typical life cycle. The lucky ones like cobb are able to ride that out and return to good statue.

The fact is that the mazdaspeed community seems to be extremely susceptible to group think and tempermental mood swings
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Back on the old forum, I called it the Wheel of Vendor Bash. It basically changed every couple weeks.
 
damn, as soon as i was set again on installing my cp-e seals, i come across this thread.

i really don't want to have to replace shit. so i guess i'll get the cs seals.
 
sickms3 said:
damn, as soon as i was set again on installing my cp-e seals, i come across this thread.

i really don't want to have to replace shit. so i guess i'll get the cs seals.
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I'm still sold on cpe...a couple of bad ones over the course of a few years...meh
 
I have only heard of a guy blow his CPE seals, and he was +500 hp. I do think the seals, (no matter the brand) are really not meant to be removed. Expensive if you have to remove em for some reason.
 
I've been running CP-E seals for 3 years, 30k miles and havent had any issues. They will be inspected when my forged long block is ready to swap and investigate which one I source next. I would get another set of CP-E's based on my experience.

Also I agree 100% with the whole vendor bashing. Its a surprise companies stick around and still make product for a 10 year old platform after the hell some people put them through over even the most insignificant failure. All the band-wagoners blindly follow too.
 
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This makes me super paranoid because I bought new cpe seals when I put the gen 2 motor in. I have already had shit luck with this car.....

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Just chiming in to help quell fears. CPE seals, about 5k miles on built motor at about 450 whp, no issues at all. Not a lot of miles I know, but Im not worried about them either.
 
Just to clarify: I'm not trying to hate on CP-e or scare anyone. And I know a lot of them are in service with no issues. I'm just saying that for me, if I'm going to make the purchase of upgraded seals, I'd only want to do it once, and two issues would make CS the no-brainer for me: 1) superior design/potential reusability/much easier to remove if necessary; 2) no need for Permatex.

I'm not even specifically mentioning potential reliability above, but I think the CS design has an influence on that too.
 
I don't understand how metal on metal is supposed to completely seal in such a volatile environment. The oem seals had rubber on them. Sure they leak, but at least the engineers weren't asking the impossible. Toyota doesn't use any sealing agent or rubber and they leak. But they introduced the idea of crushing as the seal method.

Think of all the gaskets on engines...on the car all together. Everywhere you're sealing there is a gasket. I don't see the issue, i guess, except that cpe didn't figure it out in advance. And people can't handle an update to a design or even an installation procedure. Because that never happens in the auto industry, right?
 
I have the original Tokay V1's in my car for 18 months before the built motor, reused in built and after 6 months all seems fine. The V1's came out with the injectors and looked good so I reused them.
 
78jdbronco said:
I don't understand how metal on metal is supposed to completely seal in such a volatile environment. The oem seals had rubber on them. Sure they leak, but at least the engineers weren't asking the impossible. Toyota doesn't use any sealing agent or rubber and they leak. But they introduced the idea of crushing as the seal method.

Think of all the gaskets on engines...on the car all together. Everywhere you're sealing there is a gasket. I don't see the issue, i guess, except that cpe didn't figure it out in advance. And people can't handle an update to a design or even an installation procedure. Because that never happens in the auto industry, right?
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The difference is our injector seals see literally thousands of psi of pressure. Regular seals/gaskets elsewhere in engines come nowhere close to that. CS seals expand as they compress in several key planes that makes for an extremely tight seal that can handle that load.

All things considered, our 1600-1800psi is very low for DI. Many systems run over 3000. IIRC, diesels do way more than that even.
 
I was between the 2 when I found out my stock seals were leaking. I went with the CS seals. I'm glad I did. I agree with Raider that they are expensive to replace if you have to remove them but it's the same deal with gaskets. You may get away with reusing them, you may not. If its a pain in the dick to get to them I'm likely going to replace to be on the safe side. I can tell you though, If I even have to pull mine again, and they look fine, they're going back in. If I'm not mistaken the cp-e seals have to get torqued down harder than the CS. They require replacement studs as well. The CS seals are a simple swap. I'm sure either one works, CS just looked more seamless to me. Also, all that shit about MSF being a bandwagon of hate from one vendor to another is 100% true. That's why we're here now. Its that negativity that forced a new forum. Hopefully everyone doesn't come over here with the same attitude. Ignoring past mistakes is not whats going to grow this into something great.
 
78jdbronco said:
Think of all the gaskets on engines...on the car all together. Everywhere you're sealing there is a gasket.
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Not totally true. For example, our oil pump is bolted to the block without any sort of gasket; just metal on metal. If machined to sufficiently tight tolerances, no gasket is necessary.

I'm not claiming that no gasket is needed for this particular application; simply that one isn't necessarily required.
 
I think the biggest concern anyone should have is 1) Do they leak if never removed? and 2) Even if the manufacturer says not to, can you reuse them?
 
silvapain said:
Not totally true. For example, our oil pump is bolted to the block without any sort of gasket; just metal on metal. If machined to sufficiently tight tolerances, no gasket is necessary.

I'm not claiming that no gasket is needed for this particular application; simply that one isn't necessarily required.
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Maybe so, but if the seal leaks a little, the oil will remain in the oil pan, which does use a gasket. And that's one example of no gasket vs all the gaskets and o-rings throughout the car.

And to raider's point, I'd say the priorities should be:
1) does it seal completely
2) will you be able to remove it without damaging the injectors or head
3) can you reuse it while retaining 100% effectiveness

But i don't even have a speed anymore. And when i did, I used ptp seals before cpe decided they needed sealant. In all honesty, when that came out, i wished i'd known because i would have felt better about the ability to seal.

And, lest we forget, cpe bought their design from a forum member as well.
 
Just to clarify... If you are 100% sure that you will NEVER pull the injectors, the CPe seals are probably fine for you. If there is ANY slight chance that you might pull the injectors for any reason, go with CS. These CPe seals didn't show signs of leaking, I simply needed to remove them to get the old injectors back to the person I bought the motor from. I also wanted to keep my CS seals from my old motor as I believe they are a superior design. Unfortunately I had no idea CPe seals were near impossible to remove. My biggest gripe against CPe at this point is that they don't mention that it's basically a permanent seal. Designing a product that can't be removed, without any mention of it, is frustrating.

Al
 
78jdbronco said:
Maybe so, but if the seal leaks a little, the oil will remain in the oil pan, which does use a gasket. And that's one example of no gasket vs all the gaskets and o-rings throughout the car.
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That's not the concern with the example I gave; the concern would be that a leak there would cause the oil pressure throughout the engine to drop, possibly starving areas like the cam caps of oil. That's significantly more critical than oil simply leaking out of the engine, yet there is no gasket. It proves my point that while a gasket or O-ring is an effective and cheap method of sealing, they're by no means always the best option.
 
silvapain said:
That's not the concern with the example I gave; the concern would be that a leak there would cause the oil pressure throughout the engine to drop, possibly starving areas like the cam caps of oil. That's significantly more critical than oil simply leaking out of the engine, yet there is no gasket. It proves my point that while a gasket or O-ring is an effective and cheap method of sealing, they're by no means always the best option.
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f5a7186a76cdc255f84b80eab7399990.jpg


Why hello there starved cam cap!

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