KW v3 spring swap

  • Thread starter Thread starter john21
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 4

john21

Greenie N00B Member
Is there a way to get ahold of you? My apologies, as I couldn't find a way to direct message you. I saw an old post on KW V3's and spring rates, and was hoping you would be kind enough to have a private discussion. Reason being, is I have a BL 2.0l Skyacitve sedan, that we are trying to set up for occasional autocross and track. We have rebuilt KWs coming and currently running Koni Sports and Swift springs for a MS3. Planning on going with Ground Control rear setup and tossing the KW crap, other than the damper..of course.

Oh, also, Corksport camber plates and rear swaybar, Damond rear toe links, 17" OZ Alegg, MS3 front brakes w/track pads, a tune on Skyactive (ha!)

How can I private message you, so that I don't disturb the forum talking about a 2.0l sedan? Thank you! I am so in need and appreciation of your help.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Easter Bunny! So going back to my post, my son and I are trying to determine a balanced solution for springs to pair with the KW v3s. What I mean by balanced is two things. 1) it is not a dedicated track car and 2) avoiding spring lengths and rates that don't pair well with the KWs. Spring length - stay in a range where the damper can do its work and Spring Rate - KW told me not to go beyond 192lbs over the original spring rate that came with the kit.
The used KW kit we purchased was for a BL Speed3. So the front springs are linear about 6.7" in length and 400lbs. The main front spring pairs with a helper spring. The rears are progressive (KW part #7505) about 10" in length and somewhere around 190-240lbs, BUT I have no idea what their max rate would be due to them being progressive. The plan is to scrap the divorced KW spring and perch in the rear (the perches are all corroded and not a great design) and install Ground Control's coilover conversion kit (just the rear pieces). GC told me their rears provided in their kit are 6.5" barrel springs rated for 550lbs. GC can swap the springs out if I don't want to go that stiff, which would be a non-barrell spring, 7" 400 or 450lbs. Should I just stick with the 550s? Or will this be too stiff for the street and not pair well with the 400s up front? Based on what KW shared with me, the 550's might be beyond it's valving setup, and could damage them. Since I don't know what the max rate is on the rear progressive spring, I don't know where the damage or functional limit is for the rear damper. I do appreciate the rears should have higher spring rates than the fronts.

We do have a Corksport rear swaybar that has been quite effective to date.
With no driver in the car, it weighed 2850lbs, and 61% F / 39% R. The car currently sits on Swift Spec R MS3 springs on Koni sports.

Thank you! Mauro, I did receive your PM, and went with posting on the forum.
 
Hi John

Its nice to know that GC still supports our platform. I am running e30 or e36 rear spring perches.

Yes, Im familiar with the KW spring rates. The dampers are decent, but the springs they provide with their coilovers are garbage. They bottom out easy and the mix of linear and progressive springs makes the car feel too soft.

I am still running Hypercoil springs on my KW v3's. They are roughly 6.5" tall and 2.5" in diameter. They are square, so 500lb/in on all 4 corners. Ive been meaning to swap to swift, but Ill get to that...

The 500lb springs in the front, feel amazing! In the rear, different story. It is too much spring for the rear. I purposely oversprung the rear because I thought it would help with oversteer. However after having driven on them for a few years, its not worth it. The rear runs on a higher ride frequency (bouncy), than the front. Which at times makes the car feel uneasy.

Ive been meaning to switch springs again. This time I would go with Swift springs, 500 front, 400 rear. (I wouldnt go with any brand other than swift.) This will make it closer to a flat ride frequency, while still maintaining a very slight overspring in the rear. I can dial in some slight oversteer with the rear sway bar and alignment.

So if you are on the fence, I encourage you to swap springs. I dont know about the high rates that GC is recommending, but a spring upgrade does wonders for KW's. GC uses Eibach, and those tend to have a lot of coils and can bottom out and feel extra stiff. Swift feel softer because they have less coils, and give you more usable compression, but without sacrificing spring rate.

Another thing, the stiffer in spring you go, the smaller your adjustment window becomes with the v3's. A stiffer spring will keep the car stiff, even if you soften the dampers. So keep that in mind too.

I hope my rambling helps.
 
@Mauro_Penguin GC is recommending 550lbs for the rear. Most research I have done are recommending a higher spring rate in the rear due to motion control calcs.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, I just PM you.
 
Ok, so I will put a list together. I pm'd Mauro to ask if he would be open to a phone conversation, as I had a handful of scenarios to run by him.

- probably going to start with the original KW 400lbs and helper springs up front. Being a 2.0l Skyactive, the sedan is lighter on the front axle.

- spring rate calculators suggest the rear should run a stiffer spring over the front, just like many Hondas. That said, we do have a Corksport rear bar to work with. So based on the calculators this wouldn't align with a balanced frequency, but was thinking to start with a REAR spring somewhere in the 450 range.

- main issue at the moment is we don't have rear adjustment perches to work with. Ground Control, doesn't have any in stock and was willing to turn down a different kit, but the price for Adjusters, spring and base plate for the arm was quoted at $440. That is kind of ridiculous; as of a few weeks ago, they quoted me $299. Fortune Auto was asking $320 for a full rear kit. I like the GC kit better; therefore, a better understanding of how to fit an E30/E36 kit might be the best solution.

- @Mauro_Penguin , you mentioned using e30 or e36 perches? from Ground Control? Did you have to modify them? As it relates to the FRONTS, did you use 2.5" springs on the front KW coilover? I thought they would only fit their proprietary size of 61mm? I suspect a 62mm from BC, or BC/Swift would fit. Do you think a 60mm would fit? If 60mm would fit, we could order the "better" Swifts. The 62mm BC/Swifts don't have the same benefits as the original Swifts. You can see this in Swifts specifications for these springs.

- Hoping to find a solution for the rears soon! Thanks again everyone!
 
Hey John

I DM'ed you my number. We can talk about bit tomorrow, but I agree with @Easter Bunny let's keep the nerd talk here on the forum, in case it helps anyone else in the future.

I apologize, I read the first post, and forgot that you were running swift springs already. So forgive my rambling on that.

Spring calculators help. I keep rereading that you want to do occassional track, but still keep the car street able? Some of the spring rates you are talking about kind of push that line. Spring rate ride is definitely subjective to the driver, as far as whats tolerable on the street. You are also wanting to use your KW's. I wouldn't go any higher than 600lbs, just because of the limitation of the KW dampers. The v3's may not be able to handle much more spring. IF you really want to start that high, I would suggest using different dampers.

If you are going for a balanced ride, like flat ride, you will need more spring in the front due to the car being heavier in the front. If you want more oversteer, yes you can overspring the rear, but it may make the car feel a little unbalanced and over sprung, depending on the delta between front and rear spring rates with relationship to the cars corner weight.

You haven't mentioned anything about bushings. I dont think?! You are leaving a LOT on the table, by riding on stock bushings. With the MS3, the front control arms have a LOT of slop in them. Going into high spring rates will make that slop even more pronounced. The car will not handle how you want it. So please consider upgrading some of your bushings as well.

There were several suspension parts that are swapable between the MS3 and the focus ST. A few years ago I was looking at some Ohlins coilovers from Vorshlag, but I ended up just getting caster/camber plates from them instead. My point is, you might be able to cross reference some parts like that as well.

My rear spring perches are e30 or e36 perches from Ground Control. It was the result of many measurements and emails with the GC owner. The perches were off the shelf, but the upper plate they gave me to secure the spring to the subframe, was from some other coilover kit. The set up kind of limits the spring height adjustability range, but I wanted it that way because at the time I wanted to be able to swap the 2.5" springs between front and back. I will need to dig around for those part numbers, no guarantee that I have them.

About the 2.5" ID springs, I had no problem putting them on the front coilovers. IIRC there is very little slop. I dont know about running 60mm springs. You would need to measure the adjustable collar and whatever tophat you are using. I dont remember those measurements, I'm getting old.

Lastly, you mentioned that your sedan is a skyactiv? If so, make sure to maintain all your panels and wheel wells. The Skyactiv has a LOT of aero built into it. Kind of an upper hand on the Skyactiv to the MS3. They left a lot of aero on the table with the MS3 front end. At least on our platform. I can assume Mazda brought that same knowledge into the next platform as well. It WILL make a difference when you hit 36mph or higher on stability.
 
Last edited:
Subbing for the nerd talk...

I don't have any info that directly relates to this platform. I do have many years of experience with autocross and suspension setup on different platforms.

My general input
Generally speaking you want a looser rear end for better turn in.
Spring rates good for autocross tend to be to stiff for most people on the street. I run spring rates on lighter cars upwards of 600lbs - 700lbs.
Bushings are a must in order to get repeatability when you're at the limits
The biggest sway bars you can get, help offset some of the need for higher spring rates when it comes to controlling body roll. This helps with maintaining better street manors
Seat time and tires on the current setup is the most important thing. You need to hit your driving limits in the car with good driving habits in order to know what mods and tweaks to car setup you need to make.
 
Thanks guys! @Mauro_Penguin , sorry I missed your pm. I didn't have my laptop on over the 4th weekend. As it relates to autocross, my son has plenty experience, with some track time. I used to race SCCA roadracing back when I was younger with no kids. The current setup works quite well. As mentioned with the Corksport swaybar, coupled with alignment, we have been able to dial in the oversteer to an ideal zone for him.

The move to the KW's was to get the front end to sit a little lower and allow us to dial in a bit more camber up front. With the Koni Sports and Swift Spec-R (lowering spring designed for oem oriented fitment), we are tapped out at 2.25-2.4 degrees of camber. We had picked up some Whiteline busings, including the offset bushing for the backside of the lower control arm. We struggled and damamged the rear arms when installing Whiteline bushings out rear, so we have delayed taking a stab at the offset fronts, just so the car wasn't down if we messed them up. My son drives the car to work every day.

@Mauro_Penguin, going to ask the question again in the event it was overlooked....What length springs have you run both front and rear with the KW's? If you can recall. This is my biggest concern at the moment, as when I order up some perches, I was going to order some springs at the same time. Thanks!
 
Back
Top