"Super Knock" and you, a scratch n sniff discussion

[Awafrican]

I certainly notice it on short drives especially in the winter, so Tribodyn 15w40 is Winning these days based on the previous thread, Much less fuel sheer I presume then. My concern with the 15w is I'll be seeing -55f this winter, the 5w40 by them should hold up just as well correct?

 

[Enki]

I've yet to explore the world of thickness/weight and temperature bias so I can't comment on that; this thread (and the other) are all centering around the additives needed to prevent ZZB (at least from an oil standpoint). The weights will always vary by climate, bearing clearances, expected oil temps, etc.

 

[Awafrican]

Fair enough! Found this generic table, I may swap over after my next oil change to Tribodyn 5w40 and start running the uoa and adding it to the other thread for us northerners, I may have to even run 0w over winter.

 

[Enki]

Yeah that's a little more simplistic a chart than what I was referring to, but its good enough for most people.

 

[Sho]

Yeah, I dont start or drive the car in any temps below 40*F, so the 15w40 isn't an issue for me. And the reason I run that weight is due to the built motor, and it's clearances. They didn't have a 10w40 that I saw (which is what I ran before when I ran Brad Penn/Penn grade semi synthetic racing oil).

 

[Enki]

I kept my clearances stock so I could be safe using the same oil; it wasn't shearing on frequent trips to 7500, so it shouldn't be too bad going to 9 now and then.

 

[DubC]

Haaaaaaaay just stumbled across this, good watch and great channel:

@JohnnyTightlips , it's your guy!

 

[BAT-man]

@Enki, So we've had this discussion before - I know what fuel mixed into oil smells like (easily detected in a rotary engine), and I know you mentioned "when you pull your dipstick after even a short drive on fresh T6 how it smells like fuel" but that has not been my experience, which is further supported by:
https://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/best-engine-oil-all-mod-levels.7931/page-4#post-90712

As well as my own UOA's with both semi-synth Rotella T5 (12/6/20 in the below UOA) and the fully synthetic T6 (3/20/21 in the below UOA).

So that, to me, seems like it was your major peeve with how easily one can tell that T6 is symptomatic of fuel dilution. As I've previously mentioned, that type of fuel dilution (or fuel content in the oil) is more of a "my engine is letting fuel through the rings into the crank case" and has little to do with how the actual oil performs. So we are now left with the content of various chemicals in the oil, such as Molybdenum which helps prevent LSPI and calcium which increases it.

In 120K miles of Rotella T6 use on 93 pump, I have not had issues with either HPFP black death or any LSPI to note. There are plenty of T6 users that don't seem to have either as well. To me, at least for the black death symptom, it should be very much noted that it's directly related to high ethanol usages (pretty much starting above the typical 10% included in most 93 octanes).
The latter, the LSPI-calcium connection, it appears to be fairly certain, however, I wonder what levels it truly rears its ugly head at. I can state that in my case, running 300whp on 93 and doing a much higher amount of 2k+ RPM WOT logs (literally hundreds) which everyone is worried as a perfect storm LSPI environment, has NOT lead to premature engine failure in about 120k miles. This is anecdotal, but still food for thought.

TLDR: Fuel dilution doesn't appear to be a problem with Rotella T6. If the smell was an indicator in the past, it was likely due to engine issues of fuel seeping past rings, due to various build configurations.
The common factors of Calcium and molybdenum levels being potential increase risk factors of LSPI, may also not be as critical depending on the power levels. More research on that is needed.

Some good SAE papers, if you can afford them:https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2015-01-2028
Good article on LSPI and oil content: https://www.infineuminsight.com/en-gb/articles/passenger-cars/lspi-and-lubricant-auto-ignition/
Another, very similar: https://www.oronite.com/about/news/low-speed-pre-ignition.aspx
Some BP research (though partially marketing driven): https://futurepowertrains.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Future_Powertrain_Conf_2016_BP_dist.pdf
Oak Ridge presentation: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2016/06/f32/ft036_wagner_2016_o_web.pdf

 

[Enki]

Except I have had higher than spec fuel in my T6 oil and have been able to pull the dipstick and smell fuel directly on it...on a bone stock engine with less than 60k miles.

The "not having issues on 93" comment is whatever, as of course you won't have issues on that oil and fuel combo; however, I will say (again) that the worst HPFP black death issue I've ever seen came off a CX7 that only ever saw pump gas, so there's likely some variance from pump to pump (and between oils) as far as having issues is concerned.

As a side note, I think I had a T6 UOA that sat at like 2% fuel content once, and that was a hot oil change/sampling; would have been on MSF though, so probably unlikely to find it.

 

[BAT-man]

So then we both have anecdotal cases that contradict each other. Mine is from two separate MS3 engines, one which I've personally driven for all 100k miles with T6 and another one that's had 110K on it and I drove for another 10K with T6 just swapped out for another oil. No smell of fuel even on the used oil, as confirmed by the UOA.
So that 60K engine you mention may have had issues (even brand new, this has happened before), like improperly gapped/clocked rings or leaky injectors, or whatever but - fuel doesn't just appear in the oil out of nowhere, right? If fuel makes it into the oil, it has to go through the piston rings.

Just to be on the same page and define fuel dilution - It's the existence of fuel in the oil as a ratio, not the oils' ability to reduce the existence of fuel in the oil.

When fuel appears in oil, to me, it's not an oil issue, it's a "fuel is getting into the oil issue." Dilution itself is a marker of a symptom of an engine problem, not the oil itself. It's not like we can add 10oz of fuel to one gallon of oil vs another, and the first will be less diluted, right?

I can only think of one scenario, and that is if an oil somehow decomposed itself into something that resembled fuel (haven't come across that). If my logic is faulty, I am open to understanding why.

 

[Enki]

What fuel was used on those engines? Mine was always E30 or higher (usually higher).

 

[BAT-man]

Always 93 here, so that may make all the difference, but does ethanol leak past the rings better somehow? What other way can it get into the oil, via HPFP? I'm out of ideas on that one.

 

[Enki]

No idea but the fuel dilution changed drastically when I swapped oils (and why I've not gone back from RP).

 

[DubC]

No idea but the fuel dilution changed drastically when I swapped oils (and why I've not gone back from RP).

what viscosity of royal purple do you use? they don't sell the 5w-40 in a large container for whatever reason. at least i couldn't find it. that's odd.

 

[Enki]

5-30.

 

[Awafrican]

got some UOAs for you folks here, I have a 2013 speed 3, I have owned it since new with 43km on the clock, I have kept a log book of all paint and oil changes so yes I can gives you exact oil change intervals for the last going on 8 years. I have been on 94 pump gas (e10) pretty much the whole time or 91 (e10). Still stock block and original K04 to this day.
Oil history:
Factory to 38050km Castrol edge full syth 5w30 (dealer maintained)
38050 to 63719km: penzoil plat 5w30: autotech hpfp internals installed at this point pump looked good.
63719km to 113747 km Shell rotella T6 5w40
113747 to present (120525 km) royal purple 5w30: note short interval only 2205km between first RP oil change because coming of rotella.

When I fully rebuilt my hpfp this month, there was black gunk in the spill valve and diaphragm it looked gross. some of this could be atribued to various oils sure but I have always done short changes when swapping oils.

So far I have 1 UOA on RP, 4 on rotella and 1 on penzoil plat: rotella has shown 1.3 to 2.5% fuel dilution, penzoil plat 0.5% (back on 2016) and RP of 2%. remeber when looking at levels like calcium just because it's there does NOT mean it is protecting your engine the only way to tell if it's helping is to do TBN analysis.

My driving habits have been different over the years 2014 I had a 15min drive to work, winter temps of -25C ,from 2015-2019 I had a 3-5 min drive to work. the royal purple was in the car for almost 12 months and 3030km HOWEVER I now see winter temps of -43C or lower and thus idle more before driving, also 7-10min drive to work.

When looking at the oil sample I have uploaded 2: 1 for RP which will show the should be values for it, the other is the rotella one so you can see those should be values. Overall moly levels are much better in RP at 65 with 3000km and a year in the engine, where as I have had 4-11 with 3.2-5.7k km on rotella this is SHIT considering universal AVG of 64, that sample reading moly of 4 was in the car for 5 months.

silicon is high in the RP sample, I bashed the under tray and I'm sure I got some sand on the lip also had an intake leak that's sorted now.
I will do another UOA with TBN on the RP in 6000km after this fresh oil change on RP now that I have cleaned my HPFP and rebuilt it with the rays kit.

 

[DubC]

got some UOAs for you folks here, I have a 2013 speed 3, I have owned it since new with 43km on the clock, I have kept a log book of all paint and oil changes so yes I can gives you exact oil change intervals for the last going on 8 years. I have been on 94 pump gas (e10) pretty much the whole time or 91 (e10). Still stock block and original K04 to this day.
Oil history:
Factory to 38050km Castrol edge full syth 5w30 (dealer maintained)
38050 to 63719km: penzoil plat 5w30: autotech hpfp internals installed at this point pump looked good.
63719km to 113747 km Shell rotella T6 5w40
113747 to present (120525 km) royal purple 5w30: note short interval only 2205km between first RP oil change because coming of rotella.

When I fully rebuilt my hpfp this month, there was black gunk in the spill valve and diaphragm it looked gross. some of this could be atribued to various oils sure but I have always done short changes when swapping oils.

So far I have 1 UOA on RP, 4 on rotella and 1 on penzoil plat: rotella has shown 1.3 to 2.5% fuel dilution, penzoil plat 0.5% (back on 2016) and RP of 2%. remeber when looking at levels like calcium just because it's there does NOT mean it is protecting your engine the only way to tell if it's helping is to do TBN analysis.

My driving habits have been different over the years 2014 I had a 15min drive to work, winter temps of -25C ,from 2015-2019 I had a 3-5 min drive to work. the royal purple was in the car for almost 12 months and 3030km HOWEVER I now see winter temps of -43C or lower and thus idle more before driving, also 7-10min drive to work.

When looking at the oil sample I have uploaded 2: 1 for RP which will show the should be values for it, the other is the rotella one so you can see those should be values. Overall moly levels are much better in RP at 65 with 3000km and a year in the engine, where as I have had 4-11 with 3.2-5.7k km on rotella this is SHIT considering universal AVG of 64, that sample reading moly of 4 was in the car for 5 months.

silicon is high in the RP sample, I bashed the under tray and I'm sure I got some sand on the lip also had an intake leak that's sorted now.
I will do another UOA with TBN on the RP in 6000km after this fresh oil change on RP now that I have cleaned my HPFP and rebuilt it with the rays kit.

This is terrific data! Sadly, I can't really tell what all is relevant and/or the overall meaning. Is the end result that RP 5W30 is now the go-to and rotella is shit? i just bought 2 new jugs of rotella so i need to know if i wasted my funds.

 

[Awafrican]

This is terrific data! Sadly, I can't really tell what all is relevant and/or the overall meaning. Is the end result that RP 5W30 is now the go-to and rotella is shit? i just bought 2 new jugs of rotella so i need to know if i wasted my funds.

Tribodyn / royal purple are top 2 currently recommended with penzoil ultra plat in there as well see this thread: https://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/best-engine-oil-all-mod-levels.7931/

 

[DubC]

Tribodyn / royal purple are top 2 currently recommended with penzoil ultra plat in there as well see this thread: https://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/best-engine-oil-all-mod-levels.7931/

thanks for the deets. holy shit that Tribodyn is $$$.