Cas' 800+ or Bust Build

[CMajor]

I've done both many times. With wet lay ups, you can wet sand them with a few higher grit sand papers and it clean them up a bit as far as even-ness. If you want it to look very shiny, hit it with some clear coat.

Also, when sanding make sure to wear long sleeves and at the very least a dust mask (preferably a resporator)


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Awesome thank you for the advice! Yeah I bought a dust mask just for the fumes of the epoxy + hardener, which helped but it didn't completely block out the smell. I'll see about getting a respirator when I get more time and money to buy more supplies. Where do you get your stuff and what method do you prefer? Any experience with making polyurethane molds? Sorry for rifling off questions but I don't know anybody that has any experience with this stuff so I'm just going off what I've read about. Like I said in the OP, my final goal is to re-make my open mouth grill of carbon fiber so if that gives you an idea of the path I'm trying to take.

 

[Sho]

What do compression and leakdown look like? Have you pulled the pan to look at the rods? When I see a turbo that big on stock block, I pucker... tick, tick, tick, tick... o.0 Glad a build is in the works.

We live life on the edge here. I ran a 5858 on my stock block from 124k to 162k miles lol. Etipp set the stock block record around 100k miles on his stock block and drove it for another 2 years before swapping for a built motor. But yeah, @CMajor has some big balls lol

 

[Redline]

We live life on the edge here. I ran a 5858 on my stock block from 124k to 162k miles lol. Etipp set the stock block record around 100k miles on his stock block and drove it for another 2 years before swapping for a built motor. But yeah, @CMajor has some big balls lol

Get eyes on the rods afterwords? (Just curious) The MZR DISI is pretty stout, indeed. Peeps hear ZZB stories, but that's usually the tune's fault or going WOT too early/or in 6th.

 

[Sho]

Get eyes on the rods afterwords? (Just curious) The MZR DISI is pretty stout, indeed. Peeps hear ZZB stories, but that's usually the tune's fault or going WOT too early/or in 6th.

Nope, my stock block went right into another ms3 which is still running perfect 13 months later. Did a compression test right before pulling it out of my car and it was 178-182 psi across all cylinders. Never did a leak down test, though.

 

[Maisonvi]

Awesome thank you for the advice! Yeah I bought a dust mask just for the fumes of the epoxy + hardener, which helped but it didn't completely block out the smell. I'll see about getting a respirator when I get more time and money to buy more supplies. Where do you get your stuff and what method do you prefer? Any experience with making polyurethane molds? Sorry for rifling off questions but I don't know anybody that has any experience with this stuff so I'm just going off what I've read about. Like I said in the OP, my final goal is to re-make my open mouth grill of carbon fiber so if that gives you an idea of the path I'm trying to take.

Both methods work, wet lay up is the much cheaper/easier way to go (way less supplies and time), but if you are going for the lightest strongest way to do it, you need to use vacuum bagging. It pulls out all the excess resin, as well as helps impregnate the CF with an even amount of resin. Personally, if I was still messing with the stuff, I would just stick to wet layups, we arent building F1 cars here.

As far as molds go, we had awesome results with making molds out of a material that was a very very dense foam. (was close to wood or MDF as a representation. But we used a ton of other ways. for our larger items (body panels and such) we actaully made a steel fame with 3/8" rod, and then covered it with felt and then used bondo over that to get the shape we wanted.

Really what Im getting at is you can use anything for a mold, (assuming its non-porus) you just need to make sure you have a mold release wax on it. The wax is the key to getting any parts off. That and avoiding negative draft, unless you plan to cut it off in 2 parts.

Its been quite a few years since Ive messed with it, but if you have any questions PM me and I can try and help. Between me and my wife we both did a bunch of CF work back in the day.

 

[CMajor]

Both methods work, wet lay up is the much cheaper/easier way to go (way less supplies and time), but if you are going for the lightest strongest way to do it, you need to use vacuum bagging. It pulls out all the excess resin, as well as helps impregnate the CF with an even amount of resin. Personally, if I was still messing with the stuff, I would just stick to wet layups, we arent building F1 cars here.

As far as molds go, we had awesome results with making molds out of a material that was a very very dense foam. (was close to wood or MDF as a representation. But we used a ton of other ways. for our larger items (body panels and such) we actaully made a steel fame with 3/8" rod, and then covered it with felt and then used bondo over that to get the shape we wanted.

Really what Im getting at is you can use anything for a mold, (assuming its non-porus) you just need to make sure you have a mold release wax on it. The wax is the key to getting any parts off. That and avoiding negative draft, unless you plan to cut it off in 2 parts.

Its been quite a few years since Ive messed with it, but if you have any questions PM me and I can try and help. Between me and my wife we both did a bunch of CF work back in the day.

That's great info man, thank you, that helps a lot. I'm sure I'll pm you at some point when I buy some more stuff for this side project.

Side note, I adjusted my stock shifter last night when I got home from work and drove around today. I think that's the reason I've been missing shifts at the drag strip. It seems way easier to shift into gear now that I made the adjustment.
[doublepost=1476254134][/doublepost]Vdyno needs to stop playing with my emotions. It was pretty chilly on my way home from work tonight so I figured I'd take some logs on my way home to see how things looked. I wasn't disappointed...

But holy shit balls my car feels fast, I absolutely love it!

 

[Realgib3]

Get eyes on the rods afterwords? (Just curious) The MZR DISI is pretty stout, indeed. Peeps hear ZZB stories, but that's usually the tune's fault or going WOT too early/or in 6th.

As Sho said, his engine is still running in another car and Jake's engine is actually running in my 6 still, now with >130k on it, and compression still 180+.

I've personally seen a lot more damage from small/inefficient setups being pushed than from bigger setups running efficiently. Not saying a bigger turbo and 500+whp on stock block is bulletproof by any means, but I'd take a smooth 380-400wtq giving me 500+whp over a BNR S3 making the same TQ with a big TQ spike and netting 100 less whp than the BT. That's just me though.

 

[Redline]

As Sho said, his engine is still running in another car and Jake's engine is actually running in my 6 still, now with >130k on it, and compression still 180+.

I've personally seen a lot more damage from small/inefficient setups being pushed than from bigger setups running efficiently. Not saying a bigger turbo and 500+whp on stock block is bulletproof by any means, but I'd take a smooth 380-400wtq giving me 500+whp over a BNR S3 making the same TQ with a big TQ spike and netting 100 less whp than the BT. That's just me though.

The solution = protune from peeps like Justin. No torque spike or aggressive ramp-up at all, and tq peak at ~4,300 on my S3. Running strong for nearly 30k miles now, and I compression test religiously.

IMHO, there are 2 primary concerns:
1) too much absolute torque; too much torque too low; or too aggressive of a torque ramp-up = potentially compromised rods.
2) Going north of 400whp. There's a direct relationship between power and heat, therefore in so doing, the ringlands are the main concern. Ring butting will happen much more readily in a hotter combustion chamber.

 

[Realgib3]

The solution = protune from peeps like Justin. No torque spike or aggressive ramp-up at all, and tq peak at ~4,300 on my S3. Running strong for nearly 30k miles now, and I compression test religiously.

IMHO, there are 2 primary concerns:
1) too much absolute torque, too much torque too low; or too aggressive of a torque ramp-up = potentially compromised rods.
2) Going north of 400whp. There's a direct relationship between power and heat, therefore in so doing, the ringlands are the main concern. Ring butting will happen much more readily in a hotter combustion chamber.

Meh. My response was coming from the view point of a protuner, who's seen more setups, both good and bad, than most can even imagine.

Also, There's a lot more to the relationship between power and heat.

 

[Redline]

Meh. My response was coming from the view point of a protuner, who's seen more setups, both good and bad, than most can even imagine.

Also, There's a lot more to the relationship between power and heat.

Yes, including how hard the turbo is being pushed. But when you're running a BNR S3 with E28 + 100% 12.8GPH methanol, the sheer amount of alky keeps everything much cooler/happier (ringlands), and I trust Justin's torque management skills as much as anyone else in the world (since he's literally tuned over 1,000 Mazdaspeeds) you know?

Besides, how one drives the car and gets into boost, and things like whether or not they WOT too low in the powerband, or in 6th at all, can have everything to do with a engine grenading or lasting. Unfortunately, there is no perfect equation to avoid it. Some engines are just stronger, for instance. There are uncontrollable, influential variables.

 

[CMajor]

Yes, including how hard the turbo is being pushed. But when you're running a BNR S3 with E28 + 100% 12.8GPH methanol, the sheer amount of alky keeps everything much cooler/happier (ringlands), and I trust Justin's torque management skills as much as anyone else in the world (since he's literally tuned over 1,000 Mazdaspeeds) you know?

Besides, how one drives the car and gets into boost, and things like whether or not they WOT too low in the powerband, or in 6th at all, can have everything to do with a engine grenading or lasting. Unfortunately, there is no perfect equation to avoid it. Some engines are just stronger, for instance. There are uncontrollable, influential variables.

Well my stock block is bulletproof (joke) hehe.

My 6th port also brings down my BATS, which helps for cooling everything. I was actually surprised by how much my BATS dropped when I first got it installed. I just pulled up a couple of logs and my BATS started out at 100 and dropped down to 55 by the end of the log. Granted it was pretty cold outside when I took the log but I still get some cooling just not as much as you meth heads .

For your second part, I 100% agree. I never go WOT below 3000 rpm in any gear other than 1st and unless I'm taking I log I usually ease into the pedal when putting around town. One reason being for traction and two not wanting to put too much load on everything too quick. I also do my best to only go WOT when my coolant temps are between 180-200. Any region outside of that I take it easy just to ease my mind. I haven't taken any thermodynamic courses in school since I'm an electrical engineering guy but I have at least a general understanding of what not to do to overheat the engine haha. Although I am signing up up for an internal combustion engines class which should be fun, it'll be my first mechanical engineering course in my college career.

 

[Realgib3]

Yes, including how hard the turbo is being pushed. But when you're running a BNR S3 with E28 + 100% 12.8GPH methanol, the sheer amount of alky keeps everything much cooler/happier (ringlands), and I trust Justin's torque management skills as much as anyone else in the world (since he's literally tuned over 1,000 Mazdaspeeds) you know?

Besides, how one drives the car and gets into boost, and things like whether or not they WOT too low in the powerband, or in 6th at all, can have everything to do with a engine grenading or lasting. Unfortunately, there is no perfect equation to avoid it. Some engines are just stronger, for instance. There are uncontrollable, influential variables.

I had a long post typed up for a response, but I decided against it.

Anyway, ironically Justin just posted a dyno sheet of a very well running/tuned S4 on stock block, which perfectly illustrates my point. Same peak TQ as Cas, roughly same rpm for peak TQ, but it can't hold that TQ at all and makes 100whp less.

 

[Redline]

/derail

 

[Realgib3]

@Realgib3 Just because he made a tune like that doesn't de-legitimize my concern. If you insist, he'll push past "safety" if higher power is your goal. And there's a big difference between 500whp and 420whp. But most importantly, presuming the tune is "safe" whether or not that's 350, 450, 500whp or whatever, I honestly believe more blocks are lost due to driver habits than anything else. But regarding the power level, my understanding is that peak torque isn't all you have to worry about. If you disagree, fine, and I'd love to hear an extended explanation, but most importantly, see actual examples of safety w/ statistics. Seriously - I love talking about stuff like this, and don't want to derail here more, so maybe we could put this in the tuning section?

If Justin told me not to worry about it, then that'd go further with me (since he has literally tuned over 1,000 Speeds - he has unparalleled experience and data with the platform, IIRC). The only other tuner that may be close is Lex I think, but I could be wrong. No offense, man, but he's my tuner and I trust him regarding my S3. I know you've tuned a good number of guys. Then there's Snaild, Dizzy, RichTune, Purple Drank, Nishan, Stratified and some local/NATOR guys. Though they're all great, they're not all at the same level in terms of sheer practical experience with Speeds/# of cars tuned.

/derail - plz move it to the tuning section @Raider , if possible?

No need for a discussion. What do I know anyway, I only have 4 posts.

 

[Redline]

/derail (tried to move/delete this, but couldn't figure out how to delete... sry! )

 

[CMajor]

/derail (tried to move/delete this, but couldn't figure out how to delete... sry! )

He's got plenty of his theory about tuning on the "other" site, I've stalked his profile and starting going through all the threads he's posted in. Is that weird? Hahah. You're good though, I'd be interested in reading responses in whatever thread is created.

 

[Redline]

He's got plenty of his theory about tuning on the "other" site, I've stalked his profile and starting going through all the threads he's posted in. Is that weird? Hahah. You're good though, I'd be interested in reading responses in whatever thread is created.

Not weird at all I self-tuned and tuned others for a few years too, and that's how I learned all that I know. I'm guessing Mark has the same story with this platform? Maybe not... But for me, Justin, Lex, Rob, and Nishan (besides the eth guys) are the group that contributed most significantly to my learning/doing. I got great results and all the tests (compression, UOAs, etc.) showed I was doing something right/safely. For me, I always err on the side of caution; and when I learned that there was a potential area for me to be even more cautious, I adjusted accordingly. We're talking about potentially thousands of $$$. So that's basically why my current tuning philosophy is what it is. And I'll ALWAYS defer to folks like Justin; I said it before, but the fact that he's literally tuned over 1,000 MZR DISI's means his credibility for me is tops.

 

[CMajor]

Not weird at all I self-tuned and tuned others for a few years too, and that's how I learned all that I know. I'm guessing Mark has the same story with this platform? Maybe not... But for me, Justin, Lex, Rob, and Nishan (besides the eth guys) are the group that contributed most significantly to my learning/doing. I got great results and all the tests (compression, UOAs, etc.) showed I was doing something right/safely. For me, I always err on the side of caution; and when I learned that there was a potential area for me to be even more cautious, I adjusted accordingly. We're talking about potentially thousands of $$$. So that's basically why my current tuning philosophy is what it is. And I'll ALWAYS defer to folks like Justin; I said it before, but the fact that he's literally tuned over 1,000 MZR DISI's means his credibility for me is tops.

Yeah I can't completely speak for how Mark learned but as far as I know they have done extensive testing on what works and what doesn't work. Pretty sure he's gone through a couple of ZZB's on personal cars while testing things out. There's a group of guys up in Cleveland that pretty much live by the standards of NATOR. I've only known them as a group for about 4-5 months and I trust them in every way possible when it comes to this platform. From building motors, tuning, troubleshooting, etc, you get the idea haha

 

[Redline]

Yeah I can't completely speak for how Mark learned but as far as I know they have done extensive testing on what works and what doesn't work. Pretty sure he's gone through a couple of ZZB's on personal cars while testing things out. There's a group of guys up in Cleveland that pretty much live by the standards of NATOR. I've only known them as a group for about 4-5 months and I trust them in every way possible when it comes to this platform. From building motors, tuning, troubleshooting, etc, you get the idea haha

That's awesome. Most of the motors built/installs down here are usually independent affairs. Having that community is a great thing.

Regarding practical experience, I'd much rather learn from someone else's ZZB than my own. Far less expensive

 

[CMajor]

That's awesome. Most of the motors built/installs down here are usually independent affairs. Having that community is a great thing.

Regarding practical experience, I'd much rather learn from someone else's ZZB than my own. Far less expensive

Makes me sad that I live so far away because they welcomed me with open arms when I was up visiting. Brings a tear to my eye that I don't have friends like that down in Cinci

At least it was done in the name of science haha