Commanding 11 afr and getting 11.7?

[mazdas4me]

Not trying to bash anyone, but 12 afr is not safe with stock internals from 3100 to 4600 rpm making 305/367. I want a somewhat safe tune. No, I have not contacted him, I just decided to self tune and am trying to figure out why I have to command 11 afr to get 11.7? Not upset with anyone, just want my car tuned properly.
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As the airflow changes while turning boost up, it'll start hitting new areas of the MAF scale that may require tweaking.

Clearly you aren't having much luck in the way of tuning, I'd let someone who knows what they are doing tune it.

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I will post up a log later after I put some miles on it.

 

[neganox]

Did you even send him the log file where your "unsafe" afrs were occurring?

That is why I am self tuning. I thought I would just pay and have it done right. Apparently it all comes down to if you want it done right, do it yourself!

Not trying to bash anyone

Ok guy.

 

[mazdas4me]

Without knowing what the target AFR from dizzy was, it's hard to say. But, the AFR's certainly aren't the worst I've seen, especially if the tune wasn't finished.

I have to agree with sharks, did you talk to the tuner about this or what?


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In his email, he said he was targeting 11.1

Did you even send him the log file where your "unsafe" afrs were occurring?


He was tuning it, I think he saw it. I didn't notice the lean issue until I started tuning it myself. Then I looked back at his logs and saw the same thing.


Ok guy.

 

[Jason@DizzyTuning]

Hey guys, I just wanted to pop on here and see if I can help. I had a look at the log you had posted, and I can tell that is one of your E85 mix tunes. Those maps are targeting 11.8:1. I'm not sure where 11.1 came from, that may have been a typo. Sorry about that!

So 11.7-11.9, is right on target. But I would absolutely clean it up for you some more, if that's what you would like.

 

[mazdas4me]

Hey guys, I just wanted to pop on here and see if I can help. I had a look at the log you had posted, and I can tell that is one of your E85 mix tunes. Those maps are targeting 11.8:1. I'm not sure where 11.1 came from, that may have been a typo. Sorry about that!

So 11.7-11.9, is right on target. But I would absolutely clean it up for you some more, if that's what you would like.

No problem Jason. This thread was in no way intended to go against you. After reading my if you want it done do it yourself comment, it sounded like I was being a jerk, but I am just super picky and wanted a go at tuning it myself. During my tuning, I found that no matter what I commanded, I got 12-13 afr at wot. WOT maf cal had no effect it seems, so I am having to command 11.1 to get 11.7. That is what this thread is about... It quickly got turned around like I was bashing you.

 

[Jason@DizzyTuning]

No problem Jason. This thread was in no way intended to go against you. After reading my if you want it done do it yourself comment, it sounded like I was being a jerk, but I am just super picky and wanted a go at tuning it myself. During my tuning, I found that no matter what I commanded, I got 12-13 afr at wot. WOT maf cal had no effect it seems, so I am having to command 11.1 to get 11.7. That is what this thread is about... It quickly got turned around like I was bashing you.

Hey, it's no problem at all bud! I'm a drama-free guy. You'll learn that about me. Lol. I just want my customers to be happy, that is my main concern. Email me (3) logs on the most recent map, and I'll have a revision for you tonight!

 

[AYOUSTIN]

1. 12:1-12.5:1 is not unsafe at all. You shouldn't be worrying about running that lean unless you're seeing knock or have an EGT sensor and see temps sky high. If there was knock then it'd be a good idea to pull it down more (what's in your logs looks like false signals). Back when I self tuned the richest I tuned for was 11.8 and max enrichment was set to 11.4 for knock conditions. Unless you're putting the car on a track and are going to be WOT for extended periods of time you definitely don't need to be more rich than that.

2. Props to Jason for taking care of it professionally.

 

[mazdas4me]

Back to my original question... Does anyone know why I have to command 11 to get 11.7 wot afr? I am talking about my self tune here, nothing to do with Dizzy tuning map. Even ots maps commanding 11.6 see 12.3. Is it something with my car, or maybe because early 07 ecu? My 09 Speed would hit commanded afr almost spot on. I got wot afr dialed in, just driving me crazy as to why this is happening. Going to do some 4th gear pulls in a couple hours. I will post up logs.
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1. 12:1-12.5:1 is not unsafe at all. You shouldn't be worrying about running that lean unless you're seeing knock or have an EGT sensor and see temps sky high. If there was knock then it'd be a good idea to pull it down more (what's in your logs looks like false signals). Back when I self tuned the richest I tuned for was 11.8 and max enrichment was set to 11.4 for knock conditions. Unless you're putting the car on a track and are going to be WOT for extended periods of time you definitely don't need to be more rich than that.

2. Props to Jason for taking care of it professionally.

1. To me 12 is unsafe, especially in CA where gas quality fluctuates, and temps into 100 at times.
2. Jason HAS been professional, and this was never about him or his tune. I posted his log because I was asked for a log with maf g's in it. That is the first I found.

Stop making this about Jason, it is about MY self tune going lean when commanding rich.

 

[Jason@DizzyTuning]

Typically, a lean condition is either improper maf calibration or a leak pre-turbo. Have you thoroughly inspected all the silicone pre-turbo, including your bypass valve hose?

 

[AYOUSTIN]

^ Agree. Double and triple check your pre turbo connections.

Also, the way you're doing your maf cals is fairly tedious. There are more efficient ways to dial in the whole curve at once instead of going point by point. Wouldn't hurt to go back to a base maf cal and start fresh.

 

[mazdas4me]

Typically, a lean condition is either improper maf calibration or a leak pre-turbo. Have you thoroughly inspected all the silicone pre-turbo, including your bypass valve hose?

Inspected all pre turbo hoses yesterday. But, I better take a good look at the bypass hose to make sure no splits.
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^ Agree. Double and triple check your pre turbo connections.

Also, the way you're doing your maf cals is fairly tedious. There are more efficient ways to dial in the whole curve at once instead of going point by point. Wouldn't hurt to go back to a base maf cal and start fresh.

What is a better way to do a maf cal? I am on an ots maf cal now minus my closed loop maf cal pasted in.

 

[AYOUSTIN]

What is a better way to do a maf cal? I am on an ots maf cal now minus my closed loop maf cal pasted in.

Here's a response I posted on the other forum in response to someone who had a similar question. The second paragraph explains what I do. Sorry it's not the greatest explanation but it's kind of hard to describe without pictures and a more step by step description.

Fueling is adjusted by scaling the MAF tables (there's 2 and they should be the same). Do a pull and be sure to log the necessary parameters (act and des AFR, MAF lb/min, MAF volts). Look at your desired fueling and compare your actual/observed fueling to it. Is it off in certain areas? If so then you need to create a multiplier based on the observed and desired number to correct the observed to be your desired. You apply that multiplier to the observed mass airflow number that is observed at that time. See what voltage the old mass airflow number corresponds to and then use that new mass airflow number and put it into your MAF curve at that correct voltage point.

That's the simple way to do it. There are other ways that are faster and less of a hassle but I'd have a hard time explaining it without visual aids. The way I do it is to create a multiplier for every point logged and corrected airflow at each point, and make a scatter plot of voltage vs corrected airflow. Use a line of best fit on the graph and take the formula it gives you from the line and apply it to the voltage values in the tune to give you the proper mass airflow numbers for those corresponding voltages. It's a fairly quick process and allows you to dial in the whole WOT portion of the curve pretty easily. Usually only takes me 1-3 revisions to get the whole curve dialed in to be spot on targets.

 

[mazdas4me]

It looks like I am calling my e15 map finished. This is my daily driver tune. I have an e40 map for max power. For whatever reason here are my final commanded wot afr vs actual afr.
3500 11.2 to get 11.7
4000 11.1 to get 11.7
4500 11 to get 11.7
5000 11 to get 11.6
5500 11 to get 11.6
6000 11.1 to get 11.6
6500 11.1 to get 11.6

I am still baffled as to why this is. If I command 11.8, do a log, it gets me mid 12 afr. I try to maf cal, and literally has no effect lean or rich on wot log. I have done like 5 revisions, maf curve gets way off in that area, but no effect on afr. I have done quite a few maf cals. The way I do may be tedious, but it works(usually, but not this car!) I have used the open loop portion of the COBB ots map that matches my COBB intake and pasted my calibrated closed loop portion in. I have only adjusted commanded afr to get these results.

Anyone willing to verify this is welcome to. I can send you my ATR folder and my map. you can look it over, make changes, and send it back to me. ATR will run fine from another computer if whole folder is copied. I have done it with a couple people already.

Just an option for anyone thinking I am doing something wrong, or crazy, or whatever. Or just want to see for yourself. It is so strange, but I am super stoked to finally be under that 12 afr line consistently with no knock, making 282/346 on e15.

Here is the final log of my self tuned e15 map.

Now back to the e40 map to apply what I have learned in this long tuning journey.

 

[AYOUSTIN]

Wait so the WOT portion of your maf cal is unchanged from an OTS map?

If so that is definitely the problem. Cobb's OTS maps suck ass through a straw. Cal the entire curve and see if that helps.

 

[mazdas4me]

Wait so the WOT portion of your maf cal is unchanged from an OTS map?

If so that is definitely the problem. Cobb's OTS maps suck ass through a straw. Cal the entire curve and see if that helps.

Wait so the WOT portion of your maf cal is unchanged from an OTS map?

If so that is definitely the problem. Cobb's OTS maps suck ass through a straw. Cal the entire curve and see if that helps.

That is correct. Like I have been saying... A wot maf cal has NO effect on my wot afr. And all maps hit about .7 afr leaner than commanded. The only way I can get wot afr on target is commanded afr. I have been fighting this for quite some time. I would not have made some silly thread saying something that isn't really happening.

 

[udntknw]

One recommendation, always log your G/S with the MAF V. You're asking for any unit in what may be the cause, but you don't have a log that has the necessary info. Without comparing airflow to MAF V we have nothing to go off of.

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[mazdas4me]

One recommendation, always log your G/S with the MAF V. You're asking for any unit in what may be the cause, but you don't have a log that has the necessary info. Without comparing airflow to MAF V we have nothing to go off of.

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Maf v and Maf g's are logged on my latest log.

 

[udntknw]

Maf v and Maf g's are logged on my latest log.

My apologies. My phone wasn't replacing the previous datalog3 you uploaded.

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[AYOUSTIN]

Just out of curiosity, how many WOT maf cal revisions have you done before you started over? Also, how old are your O2 sensors?

 

[mazdas4me]

Just out of curiosity, how many WOT maf cal revisions have you done before you started over? Also, how old are your O2 sensors?

Probably about 6, at which point the curve gets too far off. And, no afr change happens at wot. Car has 95k and oem 02 sensors. No other concerns at all. Getting good fuel mileage for a Speed, fuel trims perfect.