500whp No Aux
- Thread starter PoonFlavoredTang
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GE3KSPD
Greenie N00B Member
HawkeyeGeoff
MSO Chicks
This is just blatant misrepresentation. @neganox; either A. Delete this thread or B. OP post something more legitimate. At this point it's just inflated numbers for the sake of inflated numbers.
If you make 500 somehow on just pump....which NO ONE has ever done before...show some real evidence or delete this and stop embarrassing yourself.
If you make 500 somehow on just pump....which NO ONE has ever done before...show some real evidence or delete this and stop embarrassing yourself.
PoonFlavoredTang
Greenie N00B Member
So my post challenges your's and likely most people's understanding of what is capable out of the stock fueling system and you find it in good tone to tell me to suck your dick? C'mon man.
At first I get told 400whp isn't possible on pump gas with stock fueling. I pay for a dyno of my car and low and behold it backs up my vdyno. No problem. That wasn't my original intent but I say its satisfying to see you bitch and moan about it when I see messages relayed via facebook.
Now I try to maximize the stock fueling in a methodical way to hopefully gain data that we can use to apply to a better cause. And here you are again ready to shoot shit down.
Now, I'm being told it was a "happy" dyno, yet everything else dynos within a window of average at this place, but some how my car is an outlier. go figure.
At first I get told 400whp isn't possible on pump gas with stock fueling. I pay for a dyno of my car and low and behold it backs up my vdyno. No problem. That wasn't my original intent but I say its satisfying to see you bitch and moan about it when I see messages relayed via facebook.
Now I try to maximize the stock fueling in a methodical way to hopefully gain data that we can use to apply to a better cause. And here you are again ready to shoot shit down.
Now, I'm being told it was a "happy" dyno, yet everything else dynos within a window of average at this place, but some how my car is an outlier. go figure.
GE3KSPD
Greenie N00B Member
Like stated above, I asked your highness to suck upon my dick because of your posts that are of dick type. Offer still stands, dick in hand. I'm no longer interested in the math, science, dyno etc. Seriously, stop playing victim... I can't believe this is the first time someone told you to suck a dick.
PoonFlavoredTang
Greenie N00B Member
how am I misrepresenting anything? You have the logs right there. I have a strategy in mind. So what is there to delete? Seem some are butthurt honestly.
[doublepost=1456518803][/doublepost]
let me ask you this, what started your problem with me? Was it the 400whp pump gas thing? Was it before that?
Enki
Motorhead
My post from the Facebook thread:
Alright guys, here's the deal; he's not posting because he's waiting for me to explain. This was done entirely as a test to see what COULD be done. As he said, it's not safe, nor recommended or even suggested that anyone else try this; it's honestly no different than saying running nitrous on a K04, and making 500 WTQ / 300 WHP. This is curiosity pure and simple.
Truth is, I've been working with Poon on this for what, a week or two now? He wanted to see how far he could push the stock injectors, with no help from alt fuel sources whatsoever. To this end, I helped guide his tuning endeavor, because at first, he was making shit for power due to his tuning strategy (which is the same for pretty much everyone I'd imagine).
Having advised others on their tunes, I've seen more than a few VDyno charts and logs; thus, I've seen the same trends that most pro tuners have seen as well. This helped me to suggest targets for tuning for Ryan (I did not touch his tune, only suggested/confirmed/troubleshot).
These are the two main points I suggested:
1. Try to leave timing low; this will give more fueling headroom, but puts the valves at risk.
2. Try to make peak power right at 6k RPM; that seems to be where this platform likes to make peak power (when not stock turbo and with flat boost) anyways. It also allows for better overall flow on both the air and fuel side; air due to less overall airflow than at higher RPMs and fuel due to spray window time in MS (in hindsight, I should have had him add Inj MS to the logs).
The car made 450 to the wheels *easily* in a fourth gear pull with less boost and the same timing; the reason he didn't do a fourth gear pull on this tune is because it is so sketch trying to make power this way that it's a roll of the dice every time he does (even on a built motor). He's well aware of this, and after doing the one or two pulls he did today, he's already back on his safe map. Oh, and he's on drag radials, so that helps with traction in third, but I think he's close to being out of it even on this map.
At the very least, this brings valuable information to the platform.
Random log info:
He's hitting just under 4.4 volts @ 6200 RPM and flowing 424 g/s while doing it. It just starts to go lean at 6k, but doesn't go over 12:5 AFR until after peak power; knowing this, the next revision will drop boost past 6k to compensate, which will cost a touch of power, sure, but will be overall safer.
IDCs are just shy of 135, with 10.5 degrees timing at peak power, and is knock free, minus the sub .5 blip here and there; I don't anticipate this tune surviving the summer months, but with BATs in the mid 80s and IATs in the low 60s, it's "okay."
Firesuit is a go.
END
BTW, it turns out the info I posted above was for the wrong log, but the results are similar. The truth is we don't know how the engine is supposed to react when you're past the stock fuel system by sometimes upwards of 40% with no supplemental fueling.
Over the literal hundreds of IM's I've had with Poon over Facebook this past week, every time he's made a change and the number has gone up, we've both been surprised and scared at the result. Again, this is testing for the sake of knowing, and neither one of us recommend trying anything similar.
What I want to know is if Ryan goes to a legit dyno (which he will be doing), with only minor changes to the tune for safety and still makes over 450, will you all still try to negate these findings? If so, why? What does it matter that he's doing something unsafe and getting incredible results from?
Alright guys, here's the deal; he's not posting because he's waiting for me to explain. This was done entirely as a test to see what COULD be done. As he said, it's not safe, nor recommended or even suggested that anyone else try this; it's honestly no different than saying running nitrous on a K04, and making 500 WTQ / 300 WHP. This is curiosity pure and simple.
Truth is, I've been working with Poon on this for what, a week or two now? He wanted to see how far he could push the stock injectors, with no help from alt fuel sources whatsoever. To this end, I helped guide his tuning endeavor, because at first, he was making shit for power due to his tuning strategy (which is the same for pretty much everyone I'd imagine).
Having advised others on their tunes, I've seen more than a few VDyno charts and logs; thus, I've seen the same trends that most pro tuners have seen as well. This helped me to suggest targets for tuning for Ryan (I did not touch his tune, only suggested/confirmed/troubleshot).
These are the two main points I suggested:
1. Try to leave timing low; this will give more fueling headroom, but puts the valves at risk.
2. Try to make peak power right at 6k RPM; that seems to be where this platform likes to make peak power (when not stock turbo and with flat boost) anyways. It also allows for better overall flow on both the air and fuel side; air due to less overall airflow than at higher RPMs and fuel due to spray window time in MS (in hindsight, I should have had him add Inj MS to the logs).
The car made 450 to the wheels *easily* in a fourth gear pull with less boost and the same timing; the reason he didn't do a fourth gear pull on this tune is because it is so sketch trying to make power this way that it's a roll of the dice every time he does (even on a built motor). He's well aware of this, and after doing the one or two pulls he did today, he's already back on his safe map. Oh, and he's on drag radials, so that helps with traction in third, but I think he's close to being out of it even on this map.
At the very least, this brings valuable information to the platform.
Random log info:
He's hitting just under 4.4 volts @ 6200 RPM and flowing 424 g/s while doing it. It just starts to go lean at 6k, but doesn't go over 12:5 AFR until after peak power; knowing this, the next revision will drop boost past 6k to compensate, which will cost a touch of power, sure, but will be overall safer.
IDCs are just shy of 135, with 10.5 degrees timing at peak power, and is knock free, minus the sub .5 blip here and there; I don't anticipate this tune surviving the summer months, but with BATs in the mid 80s and IATs in the low 60s, it's "okay."
Firesuit is a go.
END
BTW, it turns out the info I posted above was for the wrong log, but the results are similar. The truth is we don't know how the engine is supposed to react when you're past the stock fuel system by sometimes upwards of 40% with no supplemental fueling.
Over the literal hundreds of IM's I've had with Poon over Facebook this past week, every time he's made a change and the number has gone up, we've both been surprised and scared at the result. Again, this is testing for the sake of knowing, and neither one of us recommend trying anything similar.
What I want to know is if Ryan goes to a legit dyno (which he will be doing), with only minor changes to the tune for safety and still makes over 450, will you all still try to negate these findings? If so, why? What does it matter that he's doing something unsafe and getting incredible results from?
HawkeyeGeoff
MSO Chicks
You are manipulating the system to show higher numbers than a lot of believe are there. Get a 4th gear log, get some traction and show something that doesn't have wheel slip or "vdyno voodoo" in it. It doesn't show anything the way it sits.
[doublepost=1456519461][/doublepost]
Okay. Here's a legitimate post I can get behind. Thank you for some detail.
If he can make ~450 on pump, why not show this without all the smoothing and jumbling? This in itself would be quite a feat.
Enki
Motorhead
Hawkeye, this tune is sketch as it is; it's riding that edge of built motor destruction, and you want him to load it up even more for even longer? Not worth it. He's going to dyno 4th gear on the rollers, but let's face it; most 4th gear dyno pulls on an actual dyno last about as long as a street run 3rd gear pull.
rfinkle2
Greenie Member
I'll refute it for 2 reasons. Those following this whole circus remember that the original post was a dick swinging post about making 400 hp on pump gas.
Now, my understanding is you might add race gas to the mix and this suddenly becomes how you can make 500 hp on pump gas, or wait was it race gas and pump gas.. or was it..
Is this for science, or is it for dick swinging? Seems to me for dick swinging from one of the scientists and for science for the other.
I hate to say this, but none of this means a motherfucking thing because not all of the ecu's are going to allow you to run 145 IDC's, some won't even allow 100.
Not only that, but we have no injector control, so even if someone somehow develops a larger injector, the chances we will be able to control it are so small..
I am all for science, but does anyone really think this is for science anymore?
[doublepost=1456520881][/doublepost]I honestly don't know what this mess is for anymore. It is an unconventional build, with a t3 flange, and a car that can handle 145 IDC's.
That covers about 1% of the builds out there, and the way this is being presented doesn't benefit anyone, imo.
Have @ the 500 hp one pull silliness.. One pull on a ragged edge tune, that to me is not science. maybe to others it is..
Now, my understanding is you might add race gas to the mix and this suddenly becomes how you can make 500 hp on pump gas, or wait was it race gas and pump gas.. or was it..
Is this for science, or is it for dick swinging? Seems to me for dick swinging from one of the scientists and for science for the other.
I hate to say this, but none of this means a motherfucking thing because not all of the ecu's are going to allow you to run 145 IDC's, some won't even allow 100.
Not only that, but we have no injector control, so even if someone somehow develops a larger injector, the chances we will be able to control it are so small..
I am all for science, but does anyone really think this is for science anymore?
[doublepost=1456520881][/doublepost]I honestly don't know what this mess is for anymore. It is an unconventional build, with a t3 flange, and a car that can handle 145 IDC's.
That covers about 1% of the builds out there, and the way this is being presented doesn't benefit anyone, imo.
Have @ the 500 hp one pull silliness.. One pull on a ragged edge tune, that to me is not science. maybe to others it is..
Last edited:
Enki
Motorhead
Per the upgraded injector thread on MSF (of which I am heavily involved and have spent well over $1000 supporting):
Edit:
I firmly believe that the *functional* IDC limit has everything to do with the type of fuel, RPM at IDC level, and how much timing is being tossed at making power. The more you add of everything, the worse off you are.
I believe that anyone could prove this by attempting to replicate the same test Ryan has done. Do I recommend anyone try this? No, absolutely not. It's batshit to even consider.
rfinkle2
Greenie Member
Again Enki, and my apologies for saying so, but you are a convert to Versatune.. which, imo makes this particular venture even more of a niche experiment.
Hell Enki, if you want to make bigger injectors, go for it man, but I have to think even you see what this is turning into.
This is, imo a mockery of any type of science.
[doublepost=1456521495][/doublepost]EDIT: The effort to make bigger injectors is not the mockery... The math has to have already presented itself to you by now that you need though.
Hell Enki, if you want to make bigger injectors, go for it man, but I have to think even you see what this is turning into.
This is, imo a mockery of any type of science.
[doublepost=1456521495][/doublepost]EDIT: The effort to make bigger injectors is not the mockery... The math has to have already presented itself to you by now that you need though.
Enki
Motorhead
IMO, this would be a mockery of science if this is all that was done. More testing is coming, with results that will be doled out at a public event from a third party that has no interest or knowledge of what is going on in this thread (I.E. a dyno). Other cars will run there and the numbers will be compared to mod levels to get a baseline of what's going on. The knowledge gained thus far has been extremely valuable (to me at least) since it's helped confirm a thing or two.
To everyone:
Sure, Ryan is probably a little overly excited but wouldn't you be if you were in his shoes? Hell, I'm excited and I literally did nothing except talk to him over Facebook. Everyone is up in arms over him doing a thing that wasn't recommended, and the only thing he did wrong regarding the thread on Facebook was post it before I was able to explain (which is something he admits he doesn't have a handle on; he's just doing the testing). The uppity nature of this thread is my fault because I failed to post the relevant info regarding the results, as I figured the log would be enough. I understand now that was a mistake, so sorry for that.
Let's just look at this logically for a second. Most cars can't make more than 380-390 WHP on pump gas without hitting 100% IDC, right? If that's the case, how much could they make if the injector was 30% larger? That's basically what Ryan's 130+ IDCs is (potentially) showing us. Grant it, I know it's not a good comparison, and we don't *really* know what's going on in the cylinder, but it's a start.
To everyone:
Sure, Ryan is probably a little overly excited but wouldn't you be if you were in his shoes? Hell, I'm excited and I literally did nothing except talk to him over Facebook. Everyone is up in arms over him doing a thing that wasn't recommended, and the only thing he did wrong regarding the thread on Facebook was post it before I was able to explain (which is something he admits he doesn't have a handle on; he's just doing the testing). The uppity nature of this thread is my fault because I failed to post the relevant info regarding the results, as I figured the log would be enough. I understand now that was a mistake, so sorry for that.
Let's just look at this logically for a second. Most cars can't make more than 380-390 WHP on pump gas without hitting 100% IDC, right? If that's the case, how much could they make if the injector was 30% larger? That's basically what Ryan's 130+ IDCs is (potentially) showing us. Grant it, I know it's not a good comparison, and we don't *really* know what's going on in the cylinder, but it's a start.
Pretty sure people thought the same with Einstein and the gravitational waves. Hey it only took them 100 years to prove it. I'm no genius by any means, but how can we pounce so hard on one's hypothesis? If this was the final result I could understand. Anyways I will shut up and enjoy my popcorn.
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