Aftermarket rods & stock pistons
- Thread starter g00s3y
- Start date
Nope, I read it all. And if you see the other info above, the fact that 2618s are ultimately stronger (by a small margin) is mentioned (this is stated in your CP link, too), as is the fact that 4032 material is 20% lighter than 2618 material, though this can be offset if a 4032 material requires a more robust design, thus making a 4032 piston ultimately heavier than a 2618 alternative. It's also mentioned the the properties of 2618 are such that when you see knock, it's much more resilient than 4032 to its effects. But, again, when you're running 40-50% of your fueling volume with some form of alky, knock isn't going to occur up to MBT (and far past it, in many cases).
That's actually why a lot of alky can be dangerous from a tuning perspective - you can go too far, start losing power, and really spike cylinder pressures. Dyno tuning is recommended with a lot of alky (if you really want to max your power), because you can accurately find MBT and then turn it back a little. And if you're getting pro-tuned by one of the reputable Mazdaspeed peeps, or if you self-tune and know what you're doing/what to watch for, it's a non-issue.
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Stronger in that it will not expand or contract from detonation and heat but will break instead. Maybe stiffer is the word i was looking for but didnt sound right. 4032 is not a performance piston alloy for boosted applications period. Ask any piston manufacturer
I think the term you're referring to is malleable. I've read numerous articles from piston manufacturers and builders with extensive experience building boosted engines. Did you read any of the previous links in this thread? Mahle (another piston manufacturer) weighed in already, which I linked. I just reviewed the articles again, and the 20% lighter claim was relative to stock pistons. I'm interested in the weight difference between 4032s and 2618s. Emailing numerous piston manufacturers about these questions now...
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Been reading through this thread for awhile now, and to be perfectly honest I'm not convinced with the 4032s. To me, I don't think it's fair to say if a 2816 last 100k then a 4032 will last 200k. These are relatively new to the plateform and have not been tested for those kind of miles as of yet. So to have any claims of how they will act and survive on our engine to me, is manufacturer bias. We can get an idea of how we THINK they will act based upon what we know about the material and based upon other plateforms success/failures but ultimately until someone starts to get some serious miles on them, we won't know forsure.
Agreed. To be clear: the 100k and 200k were arbitrary, hypothetical numbers. I, too, realize there's no replacement for practical experience/testing on our platform; that's part of why I'm really excited about the prospect of someone trying these out.
For me, the starting point of my rationale is that Mark Gibson and his folks have had tons of success with many 500whp cars on stock internals (rods and pistons), the key being that they all ran a ton of alky for heat management. The key is alky. Have we forgotten how much of a game-changer it really is???
I figure, heck, if stock pistons can do it with tons of alky, how much more would 4032s be way more up to the challenge, being far stronger, you know?
I agree, though. We need these on some cars to see what is what.
If you own a Mazdaspeed and don't have one of these, give it time......
Pick your poison, 2618 will survive detonation better then 4032 but will beat the rod bearings up, 4032 will give a bit and break before it beats the bearings out of it, either way it will be catastrophic.
The fact that a stock cast piston can survive at 500 hp is what I've said before, a good solid tune but one fart and it's all over. 2618 gives you a little more insurance if it does rattle. But regardless of what the piston is made out of if the tune is shit the motor may only last a few thousand miles.
Also you need to take in account the nature of "big power" on a small displacement engine. I don't care what you stuff it's holes with it's not going to be a 100k + motor. The rod bearings will become your consumable making the 4032 vs 2618 lifespan a moot point as you don't build a motor to make double or triple it's factory rating to putt around town picking up groceries.
500 hp on a good set of 4032 sure no problem as long as the tune is solid and conservative.
But the best comment I like is 4032 being best or designed for the mzr .
I know nothing about piston material but have Manely rods and pistons in my build. I always warm the motor up well before any action and have noticed the engine seems very tight when cold, thought this was due to a tight build, motor was built by EBtec. Motor seems to need plenty of warm up time before the tightness goes away. Is it because the 2618 pistons? I'm around 450 WHP with a GT3071 and plenty of meth. Motor has around 18K on it since the build and runs great. I can't offer any tech info here, just curious.
Indeed. I like how you mention that, essentially, the "weakest link" can change depending on your choices when you mention consumables. Do you have any reputable links explaining the bearings issues you've mentioned relative to 4032s?
For me, the key is that 500whp really isn't that much, in the great scheme of things. That's 125whp/cylinder in a 2.3-liter engine. That's not record-setting at all. Not even close - we're nowhere near the 700-800whp guys. To put it in perspective, many EVO's are running 250whp+/cylinder (obviously with likely much lower longevity, but still).
I honestly think 4032s would be great for an occasional DD/weekend warrior build concept, providing an excellent tune and tons of alky. Bearings can be carefully selected too in light of the 4032s. I'm eager to hear back what Wiseco, CP, and Mahle say when they respond.
The truth is that we're a red-headed stepchild platform. Many other folks on many other platforms run 4032s all the time. We never have because they've never been available. Look at the parts offerings for STI's and EVO's compared to us: they literally have 10-15x the aftermarket support. Hondas and Toyota platforms have had lots of luck with 4032s as well.
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Stock pistons will take a ton of power on a good tune and enough cooling.
Stock pistons will take even more power than that with a wider than stock ring gap, as almost ALL stock piston failures (on a solid tune) are of the ringland variety vs a cracked dome.
2618 with correct PWC and ring gap will take 10903973083whp, last a long time, and not be noisy.
4032 with correct PWC and ring gap will take somewhere between stock piston power (A lot) and 4032 (10903973083whp), last likely longer, less oil consumption, etc etc.
With that said, I usually recommend 4032 because 99% of people never stop at or near the power level they set out to achieve and 4032 don't have many negative side effects, as I've seen everything look great at 50k+ miles, not consume a lot of oil, not be noisey, etc.
Stock pistons will take even more power than that with a wider than stock ring gap, as almost ALL stock piston failures (on a solid tune) are of the ringland variety vs a cracked dome.
2618 with correct PWC and ring gap will take 10903973083whp, last a long time, and not be noisy.
4032 with correct PWC and ring gap will take somewhere between stock piston power (A lot) and 4032 (10903973083whp), last likely longer, less oil consumption, etc etc.
With that said, I usually recommend 4032 because 99% of people never stop at or near the power level they set out to achieve and 4032 don't have many negative side effects, as I've seen everything look great at 50k+ miles, not consume a lot of oil, not be noisey, etc.
Gen 2. TR8C mounted with simple custom-made brackets to an Ultimate Racing crashbar. I have room enough for a TR10C, by the looks of it, which is good because when I build/go EFR7163, I'll need a bigger IC (math says I'll be flowing 800cfm up top at 500whp):
http://www.turbos.borgwarner.com/go/FET6LJ
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Thanks, Mark; you pretty much confirmed most everything I thought. You taught me well in our previous discussion, LOL
So, @Realgib3 , just to be crystal-clear: you think 4032s would be totally fine and have great longevity for a 500whp goal, so long as 1) I make sure ring end-gap is sufficient (just like with stock pistons), and 2) I run enough alky (I'll be ~20–25 GPH 100% methanol range + E25) ?
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I got confused by the fact all of your statement is in quotes. Your 4032/bearing statement confused me. Derp...
Anyways, pretty sure same guy, Mark Gibson, said keyed crank and pinned cams also aren't necessary @ 500 whp for us, according to a great deal of his practical experience. Aftermarket cams aren't needed either (and weren't used in many - if any - of his builds, that I know of). Many of them were entirely stock block. I guess we're just blessed.
May be much more to 500whp for other platforms, but Speeds are good in this regard. YMMV, but I trust him. He's a Speed OG and has a LOT of practical experience under his belt, both in building and tuning. Have you read this thread yet, BTW? http://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/open-tuning-turbo-theory-discussion.3332/
A lot of practical experience has shown that not only are stock headstuds able to handle 500whp just fine, but so are the bearings and frictions washers... Again, the key is alky. I'll see no detonation at all with 40%+ fueling volume coming from alky-based fuels. I'll also run an AFR-based failsafe set to trigger my Guardian Angel if the alky stops spraying, and it reacts in like a tenth a second (very quick failsafe). Here's another knowledge drop of Mark's: http://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/my-view-on-head-studs-for-the-mzr.3346/#post-27326
I feel 100% confident I'll never have any knock. I've done a TON of tuning/experimenting with just in-tank eth and was able to go to 22-degrees timing and still have zero knock, and that was pushing the snot out of my K04. With a much bigger turbo running in the fat of its efficiency range and a crapton more alky on top with my WMI system IN ADDITION to my in-tank eth, it knocking is a chemical impossibility, unless some mechanical issue is present. Heck, with an EFR7163, I won't need the timing or boost levels that foster knock easily anyways, crapton of alky notwithstanding.
Maybe @Sho can chime in here, too.
Anyways, pretty sure same guy, Mark Gibson, said keyed crank and pinned cams also aren't necessary @ 500 whp for us, according to a great deal of his practical experience. Aftermarket cams aren't needed either (and weren't used in many - if any - of his builds, that I know of). Many of them were entirely stock block. I guess we're just blessed.
May be much more to 500whp for other platforms, but Speeds are good in this regard. YMMV, but I trust him. He's a Speed OG and has a LOT of practical experience under his belt, both in building and tuning. Have you read this thread yet, BTW? http://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/open-tuning-turbo-theory-discussion.3332/
A lot of practical experience has shown that not only are stock headstuds able to handle 500whp just fine, but so are the bearings and frictions washers... Again, the key is alky. I'll see no detonation at all with 40%+ fueling volume coming from alky-based fuels. I'll also run an AFR-based failsafe set to trigger my Guardian Angel if the alky stops spraying, and it reacts in like a tenth a second (very quick failsafe). Here's another knowledge drop of Mark's: http://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/my-view-on-head-studs-for-the-mzr.3346/#post-27326
I feel 100% confident I'll never have any knock. I've done a TON of tuning/experimenting with just in-tank eth and was able to go to 22-degrees timing and still have zero knock, and that was pushing the snot out of my K04. With a much bigger turbo running in the fat of its efficiency range and a crapton more alky on top with my WMI system IN ADDITION to my in-tank eth, it knocking is a chemical impossibility, unless some mechanical issue is present. Heck, with an EFR7163, I won't need the timing or boost levels that foster knock easily anyways, crapton of alky notwithstanding.
Maybe @Sho can chime in here, too.
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Yea I don't know what happened there lol.
Some people get very lucky with motors, I have a friend with a bone stock LS in a 99 T/A, chugged down at least 100 bottles jetted for a 250 shot before it finally puked, but then again I've seen well built motors pop way before their time. Just me personally I wouldn't trust the stock bottom end past 400 hp, not when I lost a piston at light load on the interstate at far less that hp level.
The keyed crank/cams is recommended as some people have had them slip, just more relatively cheap insurance considering that is also a catastrophic event if it happens, needed at 500 hp? Probably not but why not, you have the motor pulled down that far so what's another couple hundred bucks.