Boost_creep
Greenie N00B Member
See tech tip below. But as long as spray pattern is not obstructed, you should be fine.
John's BNR S3 daily driver performance build
- Thread starter VTMongoose
- Start date
Thanks. Never seen this document before but that is how I installed the nozzles. The threads are all the way inserted into the cold pipe. The nozzle when installed in each of the ports is flush with the inside. That's why I chamfered the intersection of the BPV cutout and elbow of the cold pipe where the top nozzle spot is, to make sure the nozzle was flush with the inside.
The reason they don't protrude more is that I chose spots where the cold pipe is thickest and then ground down the outside until the nozzle was flush with the inside. I wanted as many threads as possible.
(in Angry Joe voice) Ground Control...ya done fucked it up!
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Booooo, thanks for sharing. So, let me guess, GC said it was gonna work??
darkcambria
Greenie N00B Member
Ouch, that's pretty beat. I had the same idea as you, to drill out the top of the spring perch, but you may be right that the bilstein is too thick there. Any chance you can measure the inner diameter and compare to the outer diameter of the shock? Should be close but hopefully enough clearance.
If not, hopefully GC will man up and make you a custom perch that fits over the bilsteins correctly.
If not, hopefully GC will man up and make you a custom perch that fits over the bilsteins correctly.
It seems like it would work. I measured the diameter of the bottom of the shock body (looks to be exactly the same as the top, the shock body is cylindrical) and it's roughly 52 mm. The inner diameter of the spring adjuster is about 53 mm. That's promising, even if they give me the finger I could probably make it work, but I might need to borrow some tools. Routing out the inside with a lathe would be ideal obviously. If not I think just sawing off the whole top of the adjuster would probably do. I would take the damper out and verify fitment before doing that though
@Redline yes, I called them and talked to them on two separate occasions to make sure that everything would physically fit. They assured me it would and kept saying that I would run into issues with the Bilsteins' internal bump stops limiting travel. This always seemed wrong to me, because for one thing, I'm going to be using these dampers at their intended ride height and two, the bump stops are super easy to remove and cut, in fact I had my contact at Bilstein chop them in half while he had the damper out of the shock body for revalving.
I was looking on the internet this morning...it almost looks like GC sent this BMW guy a different adjuster sleeve because I don't see any machining marks where the anodizing has been removed. Additionally he has those o-rings to eliminate noise...that might be nice to have:
If they still carry that, I don't know why they wouldn't have sent that one instead. Maybe it's a different diameter.
@Redline yes, I called them and talked to them on two separate occasions to make sure that everything would physically fit. They assured me it would and kept saying that I would run into issues with the Bilsteins' internal bump stops limiting travel. This always seemed wrong to me, because for one thing, I'm going to be using these dampers at their intended ride height and two, the bump stops are super easy to remove and cut, in fact I had my contact at Bilstein chop them in half while he had the damper out of the shock body for revalving.
I was looking on the internet this morning...it almost looks like GC sent this BMW guy a different adjuster sleeve because I don't see any machining marks where the anodizing has been removed. Additionally he has those o-rings to eliminate noise...that might be nice to have:
If they still carry that, I don't know why they wouldn't have sent that one instead. Maybe it's a different diameter.
darkcambria
Greenie N00B Member
So the good news is that would slide over the shock body then. Basically you just need to drill out the top of the hat to slightly larger than the piston so that can freely move. I'd be bugging GC to do that though, no reason you should have to do it.
I know man...that's what I don't get. This seems to be the only thing preventing this whole thing from working, and yet they still seemed to ignore it or be completely ignorant of the problem before sending the set over to me. Literally IMO this is the only thing preventing them from being able to sell their kit as being 100% compatible with Bilsteins...why would they not do something so trivial when they could gain that much more marketability of their product? Why the heck is it even shaped like this to begin with instead of being a straight cut sleeve?
On a more positive note, I had the pleasure of getting my tires mounted on my rims last night. Amazing how much easier it is to mount 17's than 18's. These went right on no problem compared to my PSS.
edit: good news, everyone...talked to GC and they do have an "open" lower spring adjuster they will be sending me. I could have some Bilsteins on my car next weekend! Assuming no other disasters...
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So today I filled up with E85 (started with an E33 mix by pumping 5.2 gal E85 @ 82% E and the rest gas) and started off with basically the same map I was running with my methanol mix (where it wasn't knocking at all). This was knocking like crazy in the top end, so I reduced timing 2.0° across the board in the top region, massaged the WGDC table a little bit, and reflashed. Same result. @phate
Edit: upon further examination I realized that I made a mistake in that I was running different (lower) loads in the top end in my previous methanol maps. That explains why it's knocking now as the loads are a lot higher. I will adjust and continue. Lesson learned.
Additionally I will put summer tires on for next time so I can get an accurate reading of power without wheelspin.
Edit: upon further examination I realized that I made a mistake in that I was running different (lower) loads in the top end in my previous methanol maps. That explains why it's knocking now as the loads are a lot higher. I will adjust and continue. Lesson learned.
Additionally I will put summer tires on for next time so I can get an accurate reading of power without wheelspin.
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Do you guys have 91 or 93 up there? I may have missed it, but how quickly did you crank up the timing to those levels? When I used to self tune for ethanol, I'd start with 93 timing levels (maybe 12 @ 6,500), then go 14, then 16, then 18. I mean, if you have a bad tank of gas, that could be it, but with E33 and methanol on top of it, I don't think it'd knock. Is your methanol spraying too (BATs didn't appear so)? If you have a 3-port, where did you mount it?
Just spitballin' here... hope it's sorted quickly.
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Meth isn't spraying yet. I'm pretty sure I figured it out...it's just a lack of octane combined with too much timing at these loads given my current hardware. This is why I really need the methanol in the long run. It's going to free up a lot of power in the top end.
TL;DR please ignore my bad tuning.
edit: My fuel trims are indicating that I nailed my mixing, but my IDC's are indicating I have a little more injector headroom left (they never went over 100 even with the knock). On Friday when this tank is done, I think I will bump it up to like an E37 mix. I think that will be perfect. One thing that will also help is I am getting my exhaust done next Wednesday. That will remove some top-end restriction and probably land me where I want to be, relatively safely.
The power is pretty unreal coming from a 270 whp/310 wtq 87 octane tune to say the least. I will need put my street tire setup on on Friday. I would put my off-road set on, but I haven't rolled my rear fenders yet, and also don't want to damage the wheels with the current pothole situation in PA. Also, my suspension is not on yet.
I will hopefully have some good news regarding the suspension on Sunday. I was talking to Ground Control last night and can't emphasize enough, they have been really awesome to work with and I would recommend them to anyone. I got home, called them at like 3 pm their time (they close at 5) and within the span of two hours, I ran to a buddy's place nearby to borrow a caliper, took some measurements, and then they machined me custom spring adjusters for the front and shipped them so I could have them for this weekend. You aren't going to get better customer service than that. Reminder: I'm not even using their product for its intended purpose (Koni).
TL;DR please ignore my bad tuning.
edit: My fuel trims are indicating that I nailed my mixing, but my IDC's are indicating I have a little more injector headroom left (they never went over 100 even with the knock). On Friday when this tank is done, I think I will bump it up to like an E37 mix. I think that will be perfect. One thing that will also help is I am getting my exhaust done next Wednesday. That will remove some top-end restriction and probably land me where I want to be, relatively safely.
The power is pretty unreal coming from a 270 whp/310 wtq 87 octane tune to say the least. I will need put my street tire setup on on Friday. I would put my off-road set on, but I haven't rolled my rear fenders yet, and also don't want to damage the wheels with the current pothole situation in PA. Also, my suspension is not on yet.
I will hopefully have some good news regarding the suspension on Sunday. I was talking to Ground Control last night and can't emphasize enough, they have been really awesome to work with and I would recommend them to anyone. I got home, called them at like 3 pm their time (they close at 5) and within the span of two hours, I ran to a buddy's place nearby to borrow a caliper, took some measurements, and then they machined me custom spring adjusters for the front and shipped them so I could have them for this weekend. You aren't going to get better customer service than that. Reminder: I'm not even using their product for its intended purpose (Koni).
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Time for a bigass update.
A few weeks ago I finally got the exhaust installed. Everything worked as planned, although the speed daddy exhaust was hilariously bad out of the box. First off, I noticed the resonators seemed a little...empty...(yes, it is actually a 100% straight piped exhaust)
Secondly the kit just didn't really...fit. The shop threw it on my car and the back two resonators were making full-on contact with the rear tow hooks and the front section was about a half an inch short. Luckily I was replacing the whole back section and my Vibrant resonator is longer than the speed daddy. Here's the completed setup, exactly as envisioned:
The shop did a great job. The fitment is 100% spot on with no contact anywhere even after heavy autocrossing. And, well, how's it sound? Let's start with...how does it PERFORM?
The difference between the tune in the bottom two logs (on the way to the shop) and the top log (on the way home) is that I decreased ignition timing 1 degree across the board because I was worried about torque. The difference was night and day. I disabled load error comp for these pulls so the true effects of the exhaust would be more noticeable. +30 whp is a really solid gain from some piping.
As far as sound goes, this is definitely the best DD-oriented MS3 exhaust I've ever had the pleasure of driving. Cruising at 80 now is about as quiet as cruising at 60 with the stock CBE. At idle the car is literally stock quiet and driving around town, it is very, very nice and quiet. At the same time when you get on it and the Dynomax valve opens up, it sounds phenomenal. I have gotten many compliments already on the tone quality of the exhaust. Can't recommend this combo enough.
I got my tires mounted on my wheels and that worked great at my recent autocross.
My clutch decided it had had enough of my shenanigans about 4 days after I installed my CBE:
That's getting replaced next weekend with an ACT 6-pad.
Finally...let's talk about the coilovers.
Ground control has been pretty awesome to work with in some respects. For instance they seemed to have unlimited patience when it came to modifying their front spring adjuster to fit my Bilsteins.
So let me just lay out what I had to do to get this whole thing to work:
-GC coiloverkit with front spring adjuster internal diameter machined to 46.0 mm.
-6" springs in the front, 400 lb/in, with Eibach HELPER250 and SPACER250.
-6" springs in the rear, 500 lb/in
-Revalved B6's in California (I had the fronts done in NC but they were slow and did not communicate well, I would send them to CA instead)
-(OPTIONAL) - Bought GC camber plates. These actually seem pretty legit, I was surprised. I wish I had taken pics of their construction.
Currently the fronts are installed and I am in the process of finishing the rears. The only thing left to do is modify the mid chassis brace to fit with the new exhaust. Then I can finally move on to the methanol kit.
edit: Turns out the 8" springs are WAY WAY too long. The car sits 1.5" higher with the adjuster on its lowest setting. I will be attempting to source new springs ASAP.
A few weeks ago I finally got the exhaust installed. Everything worked as planned, although the speed daddy exhaust was hilariously bad out of the box. First off, I noticed the resonators seemed a little...empty...(yes, it is actually a 100% straight piped exhaust)
Secondly the kit just didn't really...fit. The shop threw it on my car and the back two resonators were making full-on contact with the rear tow hooks and the front section was about a half an inch short. Luckily I was replacing the whole back section and my Vibrant resonator is longer than the speed daddy. Here's the completed setup, exactly as envisioned:
The shop did a great job. The fitment is 100% spot on with no contact anywhere even after heavy autocrossing. And, well, how's it sound? Let's start with...how does it PERFORM?
The difference between the tune in the bottom two logs (on the way to the shop) and the top log (on the way home) is that I decreased ignition timing 1 degree across the board because I was worried about torque. The difference was night and day. I disabled load error comp for these pulls so the true effects of the exhaust would be more noticeable. +30 whp is a really solid gain from some piping.
As far as sound goes, this is definitely the best DD-oriented MS3 exhaust I've ever had the pleasure of driving. Cruising at 80 now is about as quiet as cruising at 60 with the stock CBE. At idle the car is literally stock quiet and driving around town, it is very, very nice and quiet. At the same time when you get on it and the Dynomax valve opens up, it sounds phenomenal. I have gotten many compliments already on the tone quality of the exhaust. Can't recommend this combo enough.
I got my tires mounted on my wheels and that worked great at my recent autocross.
My clutch decided it had had enough of my shenanigans about 4 days after I installed my CBE:
That's getting replaced next weekend with an ACT 6-pad.
Finally...let's talk about the coilovers.
Ground control has been pretty awesome to work with in some respects. For instance they seemed to have unlimited patience when it came to modifying their front spring adjuster to fit my Bilsteins.
So let me just lay out what I had to do to get this whole thing to work:
-GC coiloverkit with front spring adjuster internal diameter machined to 46.0 mm.
-6" springs in the front, 400 lb/in, with Eibach HELPER250 and SPACER250.
-6" springs in the rear, 500 lb/in
-Revalved B6's in California (I had the fronts done in NC but they were slow and did not communicate well, I would send them to CA instead)
-(OPTIONAL) - Bought GC camber plates. These actually seem pretty legit, I was surprised. I wish I had taken pics of their construction.
Currently the fronts are installed and I am in the process of finishing the rears. The only thing left to do is modify the mid chassis brace to fit with the new exhaust. Then I can finally move on to the methanol kit.
edit: Turns out the 8" springs are WAY WAY too long. The car sits 1.5" higher with the adjuster on its lowest setting. I will be attempting to source new springs ASAP.
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Good stuff. Your power gains being BNR'd are totally consistent with mine. I went from 360 to 395whp on the same tune going full 3" from the axleback (was full 3" up to that point already). Part of your (and my) gains were higher boost level due to the tune making boost more easily with the restriction removed, but the proof is in the pudding: on mid/big turbos, LOTS of gains are to be had with full exhaust, contrary to what's frequently told.
Even the K04 guys net 10-15whp more in certain regions, though their ultimate numbers stay pretty similar. That's the key factor, I believe, that has perpetuated the idea that exhausts on K04s are just a "sound mod." And as we both know firsthand, that's DEFINITELY not the case on a BNR S3! LOL
Even the K04 guys net 10-15whp more in certain regions, though their ultimate numbers stay pretty similar. That's the key factor, I believe, that has perpetuated the idea that exhausts on K04s are just a "sound mod." And as we both know firsthand, that's DEFINITELY not the case on a BNR S3! LOL
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darkcambria
Greenie N00B Member
Holy shit, 8" springs are pretty tall. I know you're looking for higher than stock, are you going for 7" springs next?
You're telling me, buddy. GC told me the 8" springs would allow me to adjust between 1 inch up and down. Turns out they allow me to adjust between +1.5" and +3.5". I am not trying to raise that car that much, a half inch at most. I'll need 6" springs. That will allow me to adjust between -0.5" and 1.5".
I think the disparity must come from most buyers of the GC kit buying "street" or near stock spring rates. Those would compress a lot more and drop the car a lot more. I just don't get how @ConeKiller told me his was was damn near maxed on the rear adjuster (in the "raise vehicle" direction) with 6" springs that are stiffer than mine.
So far the car drives very, very comfortably. Much better than I expected honestly. Cornering feels good and grip levels are much higher. The car is definitely still biased towards understeer, though. Sway bars will be needed to correct that.
I look forward to getting the new rear dampers as well. When I go over speed bumps, not much happens in the front, but when the rear goes over, the contents of my trunk violently rearrange themselves.
edit: Oh, I forgot to mention. The final death count for the OEM front coilovers was:
-both dampers (one leaking, one exploded)
-both bump stops (in pieces)
-one of the spring bearings was trashed (exploded on removal and innards were chewed up)
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cshunter
Greenie N00B Member
I really like that exhaust set up.Time for a bigass update.
A few weeks ago I finally got the exhaust installed. Everything worked as planned, although the speed daddy exhaust was hilariously bad out of the box. First off, I noticed the resonators seemed a little...empty...(yes, it is actually a 100% straight piped exhaust)
Secondly the kit just didn't really...fit. The shop threw it on my car and the back two resonators were making full-on contact with the rear tow hooks and the front section was about a half an inch short. Luckily I was replacing the whole back section and my Vibrant resonator is longer than the speed daddy. Here's the completed setup, exactly as envisioned:
The shop did a great job. The fitment is 100% spot on with no contact anywhere even after heavy autocrossing. And, well, how's it sound? Let's start with...how does it PERFORM?
The difference between the tune in the bottom two logs (on the way to the shop) and the top log (on the way home) is that I decreased ignition timing 1 degree across the board because I was worried about torque. The difference was night and day. I disabled load error comp for these pulls so the true effects of the exhaust would be more noticeable. +30 whp is a really solid gain from some piping.
As far as sound goes, this is definitely the best DD-oriented MS3 exhaust I've ever had the pleasure of driving. Cruising at 80 now is about as quiet as cruising at 60 with the stock CBE. At idle the car is literally stock quiet and driving around town, it is very, very nice and quiet. At the same time when you get on it and the Dynomax valve opens up, it sounds phenomenal. I have gotten many compliments already on the tone quality of the exhaust. Can't recommend this combo enough.
I got my tires mounted on my wheels and that worked great at my recent autocross.
My clutch decided it had had enough of my shenanigans about 4 days after I installed my CBE:
That's getting replaced next weekend with an ACT 6-pad.
Finally...let's talk about the coilovers.
Ground control has been pretty awesome to work with in some respects. For instance they seemed to have unlimited patience when it came to modifying their front spring adjuster to fit my Bilsteins.
So let me just lay out what I had to do to get this whole thing to work:
-GC coiloverkit with front spring adjuster internal diameter machined to 46.0 mm.
-6" springs in the front, 400 lb/in, with Eibach HELPER250 and SPACER250.
-6" springs in the rear, 500 lb/in
-Revalved B6's in California (I had the fronts done in NC but they were slow and did not communicate well, I would send them to CA instead)
-(OPTIONAL) - Bought GC camber plates. These actually seem pretty legit, I was surprised. I wish I had taken pics of their construction.
Currently the fronts are installed and I am in the process of finishing the rears. The only thing left to do is modify the mid chassis brace to fit with the new exhaust. Then I can finally move on to the methanol kit.
edit: Turns out the 8" springs are WAY WAY too long. The car sits 1.5" higher with the adjuster on its lowest setting. I will be attempting to source new springs ASAP.
If i ever decide to swap my engines and 5858 setup over, i might have to invest that muffler.
I felt bad for my neighbors at 5 in the morning.
Sent from my SP-G24627910574820P
Chef_boi_r_u_dum
Greenie N00B Member
I'm curious to see your results with the meth. Mainly because I have one of your tapped cold pipes.
In my experience, methanol on a BNR S3 isn't about making more power (if you're already on ethanol anyways, that is), it's about cooling, more consistent year-round performance, IDC relief, and clean valves. When I did a retune after going meth, I was advised specifically by Justin that he STRONGLY recommended not pushing for more power. He said I could get more, but already being at the 380/380 range means that risk/reward gets really sketchy at that point.
Chef_boi_r_u_dum
Greenie N00B Member
I only plan on playing around 330-350 range but being as safe and reliable as possible. And, naturally, whatever Justin suggests I usually follow.
The ACT 6-pad is in the car and working perfectly thanks to @nindoja and @JgamB. Those guys are awesome and the clutch swap overall went pretty well. Only thing that went poorly in the process of getting the car ready for ENM is that I stripped one of the rear lower shock mount nuts and we had to drill out the hub and put a hardware store fastener and nut in there...that was a whore of a job. Anyway...
Suspension update! I had an awesome time at the Dragon this past weekend testing my car and found that the new suspension did indeed improve the overall level of grip of my car...as you'd expect.
@ConeKiller took the car for a very brief spin and had similar impressions to me of the shocks - low speed compression dampening force is excessive, otherwise the ride is pretty dramaless, albeit on the hard/harsh side. IMO it does turn in very nicely and slaloming is very good indeed - the response is unbelievably fast for a 3250 lb. behemoth and much more grip than before.
The shocks aren't ideal but regardless, I'll push into the fine-tuning stage. The car has a low level of overall lateral grip (considering the tires I'm running) and still understeers, although throttle-off oversteer is now finally possible (the dragon was not the ideal place to discover that, btw) at times thanks to the setup being far more neutral. My instinct is to start messing with the alignment. I'll try to figure out whether I need more or less camber in the fronts and rear, then adjust, and get the toe corrected accordingly. I was talking to Johanna and I think her advice is probably spot on - just work on getting as much front-end grip as possible for now. The new springs are probably stiff enough that I'm not in dire need of a rear sway bar, although eventually down the road I'll need to figure out something there.
HTP has not finished the meth tank - no progress on that front. I'm tuned at about 350/350 on good old in tank methanol right now. I'll be switching back to E85 soon and finally getting my E33 tune finished. The car ran flawlessly at the dragon and I checked compression and plug condition when I got back and everything checked out 100%. 190-185-185-185. This motor has been great to me - to this day the valve cover breather hose is still bone dry. I also finally got the wastegate IAT Comp table dialed in well enough that my loads aren't going through the roof at colder temps.
The exhaust continues to be one of my favorite mods on the car - profoundly quiet by Mazdaspeed3 standards on the highway and still very exciting at WOT. So far the Dynomax has held up and only really rattles on cold starts.
The BNR's starting to throw a little more oil out the inlet side after the dragon trip (it has about 20k miles of moderate usage at this point) but I'm not too terribly worried yet as the dipstick's holding steady and the shaft play is pretty minimal. I'm hoping it'll last at least a whole year.
Suspension update! I had an awesome time at the Dragon this past weekend testing my car and found that the new suspension did indeed improve the overall level of grip of my car...as you'd expect.
@ConeKiller took the car for a very brief spin and had similar impressions to me of the shocks - low speed compression dampening force is excessive, otherwise the ride is pretty dramaless, albeit on the hard/harsh side. IMO it does turn in very nicely and slaloming is very good indeed - the response is unbelievably fast for a 3250 lb. behemoth and much more grip than before.
The shocks aren't ideal but regardless, I'll push into the fine-tuning stage. The car has a low level of overall lateral grip (considering the tires I'm running) and still understeers, although throttle-off oversteer is now finally possible (the dragon was not the ideal place to discover that, btw) at times thanks to the setup being far more neutral. My instinct is to start messing with the alignment. I'll try to figure out whether I need more or less camber in the fronts and rear, then adjust, and get the toe corrected accordingly. I was talking to Johanna and I think her advice is probably spot on - just work on getting as much front-end grip as possible for now. The new springs are probably stiff enough that I'm not in dire need of a rear sway bar, although eventually down the road I'll need to figure out something there.
HTP has not finished the meth tank - no progress on that front. I'm tuned at about 350/350 on good old in tank methanol right now. I'll be switching back to E85 soon and finally getting my E33 tune finished. The car ran flawlessly at the dragon and I checked compression and plug condition when I got back and everything checked out 100%. 190-185-185-185. This motor has been great to me - to this day the valve cover breather hose is still bone dry. I also finally got the wastegate IAT Comp table dialed in well enough that my loads aren't going through the roof at colder temps.
The exhaust continues to be one of my favorite mods on the car - profoundly quiet by Mazdaspeed3 standards on the highway and still very exciting at WOT. So far the Dynomax has held up and only really rattles on cold starts.
The BNR's starting to throw a little more oil out the inlet side after the dragon trip (it has about 20k miles of moderate usage at this point) but I'm not too terribly worried yet as the dipstick's holding steady and the shaft play is pretty minimal. I'm hoping it'll last at least a whole year.