Aftermarket rods & stock pistons

[g00s3y]

Ok, so going to purchase some aftermarket rods to get a motor built finally. I'm looking to go with the stock pistons along with the aftermarket rods. 425-450whp max as a goal (probably S4 & meth), not a dyno/track/hp queen. Don't need rods that support 1000hp when I won't even be pushing half that.

Now i've read up a good amount, but still not sure about what rods to go with. I'm not trying to have rods machined or anything. Want something that will just work with the stock pistons/wrist pin/size/etc. I've read that the Manley H Beam rods (which I was originally going to go with), need to be machined some to fit the stock piston? Is that fact?

I saw a bunch of threads were people talked about doing it, but then never came back to respond, or show results. Also looking at either the Eagle or K1 rods, if the Manley ones won't work out.

Basically, who here is running a motor with aftermarket rods, but stock pistons? Was there anything special that had to be done to get them to fit?

 

[broda]

IIRC the only rods (without extra machining) that will work with stock pistons are Carrillo rods which are over $800. Might as well get 4032 pistons and aftermarket rods once you reach that price point.

 

[g00s3y]

Yeah, it's looking like Manley rods and SP63 4032 pistons. Was hoping someone else had luck with another brand. Not all to big on buying aftermarket rods, and then having to machine and balance again.

 

[Redline]

Totally agree on the 4032s. Just make sure to run a ring-end gap consistent with you power/boost level goals. They'll be much more durable than stock pistons. They're not at hardcore as 2618s, but they'll have a much longer service life and none of the potential piston slap issues and extended warm-up/expansion time. 4032s are my choice for my eventual 500whp build.


Sent from a BNR'd CBM Pu

 

[DaTFranchise_ms3]

I have wiseco OTS I believe there 2618, zero piston slap and I'm at 21,000 on the motor, Manley rods w/ 625 bolts.

Piston technology has come a long way, 2618's can run almost as tight a clearance as stock, wisceo specs .0015 a far cry from the 3 to 4 thou that was recommended 15-20 years ago. And as others have said make sure you do your ring gap per your HP

As for putting rods on stock pistons, you have the motor torn down that far why not hone and hang a good set of pistons on it and throw a new clutch disk on her too. Lot of work and nickel n dime parts getting a motor rebuild, might as well spend a few extra bones.

 

[Redline]

4032s or stock are going to have a much longer service life. With OP's power goals, I think 2618s are overkill.


Sent from a BNR'd CBM Pu

 

[g00s3y]

I've got the Manley H-Beam's coming in today. I'm leaning towards the Wiseco OTS pistons. A friend just finished building his motor in his '12 EVO, went with Wiseco pistons, no piston slap, quiet like stock, etc. I've also read threads on MSF and here from others who have went Wiseco, only found people saying good things about them.

I'm leaning towards "overkill", because I'm sure after a year or so, i'll be "bored", and want to kick it up a couple more notches. Plus, I would probably light myself on fire in the car if I went with the 4032's and something happened to them.

 

[alexwlwsn]

I've got the Manley H-Beam's coming in today. I'm leaning towards the Wiseco OTS pistons. A friend just finished building his motor in his '12 EVO, went with Wiseco pistons, no piston slap, quiet like stock, etc. I've also read threads on MSF and here from others who have went Wiseco, only found people saying good things about them.

I'm leaning towards "overkill", because I'm sure after a year or so, i'll be "bored", and want to kick it up a couple more notches. Plus, I would probably light myself on fire in the car if I went with the 4032's and something happened to them.

I would look into the SP63 2618 pistons over the OTS Wisecos, they're more designed for our motor specifically. You'll have good luck with either, but why not spend a few extra bones while you can and get something a little more MazdaSpeed friendly. (oil squirter tolerances, DI style dome, etc..)

Don't forget when considering pistons you're going to have to warm up the motor a whole lot longer with 2618 vs. a 4032 piston.

 

[g00s3y]

I would look into the SP63 2618 pistons over the OTS Wisecos, they're more designed for our motor specifically. You'll have good luck with either, but why not spend a few extra bones while you can and get something a little more MazdaSpeed friendly. (oil squirter tolerances, DI style dome, etc..)

Don't forget when considering pistons you're going to have to warm up the motor a whole lot longer with 2618 vs. a 4032 piston.

You mean these - http://www.speedperf6rmanc3.com/products/speed-perf6rmanc3-custom-pistons-for-mazda-mzr-disi.html

I was thinking about those, but I've heard that people had to wait 3-4 months or more to get them. And it's sp63, i've heard horror stories, haven't kept up with everything going on there. Because of things that have happened, that are documented, not just facebook bs, i'm a little weary of doing business with them.

 

[alexwlwsn]

You mean these - http://www.speedperf6rmanc3.com/products/speed-perf6rmanc3-custom-pistons-for-mazda-mzr-disi.html

I was thinking about those, but I've heard that people had to wait 3-4 months or more to get them. And it's sp63, i've heard horror stories, haven't kept up with everything going on there. Because of things that have happened, that are documented, not just facebook bs, i'm a little weary of doing business with them.

Their pro series: link, both sizes in stock. They're what I'm running and I am very happy with them. People do have drama with SP63, which we don't need to get into, but you can't argue the fact they've made major advancements in the chase for power on this weird platform.

Is this car your daily and will it remain a daily when built?

 

[Redline]

Their pro series: link, both sizes in stock. They're what I'm running and I am very happy with them. People do have drama with SP63, which we don't need to get into, but you can't argue the fact they've made major advancements in the chase for power on this weird platform.

Is this car your daily and will it remain a daily when built?

4032s are much more DD-friendly, for the reason you mentioned above and them easily lasting 2x-3x as long. It's kind-of their raison d'etre. Just sayin'....
No-brainer for me. 4032s all the way, and SP63 feels highly confident they'll handle 500whp with ease, especially with all the alky I'll have going through my motor.

 

[alexwlwsn]

4032s are much more DD-friendly, for the reason you mentioned above and them easily lasting 2x-3x as long. It's kind-of their raison d'etre. Just sayin'....
No-brainer for me. 4032s all the way, and SP63 feels highly confident they'll handle 500whp with ease, especially with all the alky I'll have going through my motor.

I think our friend here just needs to make up his mind on how much power he wants and how long he wants the motor to last lol

I personally wouldn't want to daily a car with 2618 pistons but some people do it...

 

[g00s3y]

Their pro series: link, both sizes in stock. They're what I'm running and I am very happy with them. People do have drama with SP63, which we don't need to get into, but you can't argue the fact they've made major advancements in the chase for power on this weird platform.

Is this car your daily and will it remain a daily when built?

With sp63, I don't want to get into it either, just saying about it, I don't have the time or patience to deal with BS if it was to arise. Definitely have helped this platform.

100% will be a daily driver. Maybe autox 1-2 times a year, 1/4 mile a couple times a year. But i'll be driving to and from work, and everything in between with it everyday.
[doublepost=1480626920][/doublepost]I don't need dyno queen numbers, nor will I ever be shooting for it. I will never be going PI with extra injectors, or any of that. At the most, powerwise, whatever I can get with the s4, and 1 meth nozzle, will be as far as I go with it.

 

[WetzMS3]

Someone explain to me what issues they are actually experiencing daily driving 2168 pistons please.

@Redline , @alexwlwsn

I daily drive, and have been around quite a few built motors with 2168 pistons in these cars and never heard piston slap on any of them. Are you simply assuming there is elevated cylinder wear based on reading elsewhere? Have you torn down motors with 2168 pistons and 4032 pistons and found that in fact the 2168 pistons wore cylinder walls more than 4032?

I really think all of this fear of daily driving 2168 pistons is anecdotal and based on rhetoric from older technology. I could be very very wrong, but I imagine if there is any difference in cylinder wear between the two materials, its minimal. I'd love to learn more if I am wrong. However, I truly feel like there is a fear and paranoia that is unwarranted in this discussion that is solely based in marketing material and theories from years long ago and other platforms.

 

[g00s3y]

Also, I'm all ears on this subject. I've done everything to a car, but build the motor. The sp63 4032 were my original choice as I doubt I'll ever go over 500hp, but I couldn't get any solid info. And don't know of anyone who has run the 4032's for an extended amount if time, and how they have held up.

Edit, also what wetz said.

 

[alexwlwsn]

@WetzMS3 I don't drive my car until vac reaches around -9psi which is happens at about 155 degrees coolant temp. I guess I'm just impatient and don't want to wait all that time everyday.

I personally have no piston slap to report with my 2618 pistons.

 

[WetzMS3]

@WetzMS3 I don't drive my car until vac reaches around -9psi which is happens at about 155 degrees coolant temp. I guess I'm just impatient and don't want to wait all that time everyday.

I personally have no piston slap to report with my 2618 pistons.

I'm not really sure what engine temp has to do with piston material. If piston slap was an issue, you'd hear it idling cold all the same as you would while driving.

I drive my car maybe a minute or two tops after start up. Start car, plug in AP, light smoke, drive. I wont get out of vacuum until oil is up to temp, but there really is no reason to not drive normally when cold. Idling can wear the engine more than normal driving conditions warm or cold.

I seriously am just curious what data or facts or experience has everyone so convinced that 4032 pistons are actually any better than 2168. Or what issues 2168 pistons have actually given anyone that 4032 pistons wont.

 

[alexwlwsn]

4032 are less malleable than 2618 and allow for tighter P2W clearances, therefore you'll have a more normally running motor when everything is cold. At least from what my tuner and everyone who is local to me and has a built motor tells me, it is better to wait until your motor warms up to a good operating temperature before driving it.

That being said though, 4032 is more likely to crack if something bad happens.

I'm no scientist though and most of my 4032 vs. 2618 knowledge is from wasting times on Google and other forums. I definitely wouldn't say they're better though, just different.

 

[Redline]

Someone explain to me what issues they are actually experiencing daily driving 2168 pistons please.

@Redline , @alexwlwsn

I daily drive, and have been around quite a few built motors with 2168 pistons in these cars and never heard piston slap on any of them. Are you simply assuming there is elevated cylinder wear based on reading elsewhere? Have you torn down motors with 2168 pistons and 4032 pistons and found that in fact the 2168 pistons wore cylinder walls more than 4032?

I really think all of this fear of daily driving 2168 pistons is anecdotal and based on rhetoric from older technology. I could be very very wrong, but I imagine if there is any difference in cylinder wear between the two materials, its minimal. I'd love to learn more if I am wrong. However, I truly feel like there is a fear and paranoia that is unwarranted in this discussion that is solely based in marketing material and theories from years long ago and other platforms.

Pretty basic stuff that's been mentioned a few times already. Two main concerns (assuming piston slap isn't an issue, which often isn't). Regardless of slap, with 2618s, if you want to maximize service life:

1) You must warm-up the car a good deal more. Religiously. Not doing so compromises an already shortened service life, which exacerbates;
2) The service life on 2618s is much shorter on 2618s. That's the major trade-off you get for their strength, besides not being able to hop in the car and go, taking it easy until warm-up like you would on stock pistons (a benefit of the 4032s).

People have all sorts of goals/priorities for DD cars. For me, service life is extremely important. Building an engine is expensive. I'll gladly take less ultimate power handling for a motor that will take many more miles before it needs rebuilt. Also, as a DD, sometimes I simply don't have the time to sit there idling for extended periods of time. Sometimes I just have to go. It's my DD, after all, not a weekend/cruising car.

Some of this is mentioned here:
http://www.speedperf6rmanc3.com/products/sp63-4032-series-pistons-for-mazda-mzr-disi.html

If you want actual, objective numbers, email SP63. My understanding is 4032s last a good deal longer than 2618s. They're the "just right" bowl of porridge between stock pistons and 2618s for my goals.

Some more good info from a BMW forum. TL;DR 4032s are much stronger than stockers, and nearly as strong as 2618s, averting many of the downsides. And if you're spraying methanol and/or using ethanol, the detonation resistance differences are a completely moot point.

 

[alexwlwsn]

I will say that there is a lot of he said, she said when it comes to 2618 vs. 4032 and also a TON of hypothetical data out there. There's always the guy who's gotten a ton of miles out of his 2618 piston just like there's the guy who had no problem making a ton of power on his 4032 piston. Facts are facts though and 2618 is softer, therefore more forgiving, while 4032 is harder and therefore more of a beefy daily piston.

@WetzMS3 what's your vac reading upon initial start up?