Engine build foundation

[Blak2012]

Trying to verse myself with the ford/mazda duratec platform, i keep reading that a 2.0l or 2.5l block is a better start than trying to source a 2.3l speed specific engine. My question is, is this the same idetical block?
Are ecoboost engine blocks considered the same?

.....If it were you building an engine and you wanted it set up for 800hp, what engine block and why.



Or how about someone point me in the direction with the info i seek.

 

[Easter Bunny]

People use the other motors because they are cheaper and easier to find. The turbo 2.3 is the strongest and best starting point

 

[Awafrican]

there's a couple threads about people asking about the 2.5.

tldr; 2.0, 2.3 and 2.5 are different blocks. only the 2.3 is good for power especially the levels you're after. The chub for the 2.5 seems to come from its cheapness but if you want anything close to 400+ from what I've seen it isn't going to cut it.

 

[Blak2012]

Hey, thanks for the replys! All and any info is appreciated!

Im looking for specifics. For example " the MZR block has thicker mains" "thicker webings" or "the block deck surface is 12mm thicker" or "it has thicker wet sleeves".....things like that. I really want to find out if the mzr blocks are relatively the same "structrally" as all the other offerings or was the mzr block a one off beefier block.

Ford/mazda has offered a plethora of available parts thats not mzr and not mzr priced. Used speed engines and engine parts seem to be the crem dela crem of the market.

Again thanks for the replys!

 

[Blak2012]

Cruising around on other forums learning what I can regarding the Mazda L engine, Duratec, and Ecoboost engines I found myself on the Miata forums and here is some good info.

This thread is about the differences between the 2.5 engine that both Ford and Mazda made from 2009-2016. Obviously there is differences between them. Let's make this a place to post the differences in the 2.5 engines. In the future anyone looking to do a 2.5 engine swap can refer to this thread and hopefully help them make an educated decision on what 2.5 is best for their needs.

Wiki Cliff notes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MZR_engine
MZR is the brand name of a generation of Straight-4 engines engineered and built by the Mazda Motor Corporation from 2001 to the present. MZR stands for MaZda Responsive". The MZR generation includes gasoline and diesel powered engines ranging in displacements from 1.3L to 2.5L.

All gasoline-powered MZRs feature an all-aluminum block construction with iron cylinder liners.

The Ford Motor Company owns rights to build and use the MZR generation of engines under their Duratec brand name for global service in its vehicles since 2003.

Ford continues to develop and manufacture variants of the Z-engine and L-engine for their Duratec and EcoBoost four-cylinder engines.

Mazda L engine
Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_L_engine

The Mazda L-series is a mid-sized inline 4-cylinder gasoline engine designed by Mazda, ranging in displacement from 1.8L to 2.5L. Introduced in 2001, it is the evolution of the cast-iron block F-engine. The L-series is used by Ford as their 1.8L to 2.5L 'Duratec' world engine.

The L-engine uses a chain-driven DOHC, 16-valve valvetrain with an all-aluminum block construction and cast-iron cylinder liners. Other features include fracture-split forged powder metal connecting rods and a one-piece cast crankshaft.

Other features are intake cam-phasing VVT, VTCS, VICS, a stainless steel 4:1 exhaust header and a lower main bearing cage for increased block rigidity.

Introduced in non-North American markets for the MY2008 and North American markets for MY2009, the 2.5L L5-VE is an updated, bored and stroked version of the L3-VE 2.3L. The 2.5L (2,488 cc (151.8 cu in)) L5 engine has an 89.0 mm (3.50 in) bore and a 100.0 mm (3.94 in) stroke, with a compression ratio of 9.7:1. The standard crankshaft is forged-steel with eight counterweights like the turbocharged DISI 2.3L L3-VDT. To increase durability of the bore, Mazda uses a 4340 steel-molybdenum alloy material for the cylinder liners. This offers enhanced high-heat tolerance as well as reduced friction. The increased stroke of 100 mm (3.9 in), up from 94 mm (3.7 in) of the L3, allows a taller (numerically lower) final-drive ratio resulting in lower-rpm while cruising to increase fuel economy. It also uses iVCT. It produces 170 bhp (130 kW) at its 6000 rpm redline (168 hp (125 kW) in PZEV trim) and 167 lb·ft (226 N·m) of torque at 4000 rpm (166 lb·ft (225 N·m) in PZEV trim). Certain versions are rated at 175 hp (130 kW) at 6000 rpm with 172 lb·ft (233 N·m) of torque at 4500 rpm.

Ford has developed an Atkinson cycle variant of the Mazda L5 engine for use in the Ford Fusion Hybrid vehicle. The Atkinson cycle engine was named one of Ward's 10 Best Engines for 2010. Fuel saving features include adaptive knock control and aggressive deceleration fuel cutoff.[6]

Applications solid in America:


2009–2013 Mazda6 (North America)
2009– Mazda Tribute
2010– * Mazda Axela/Mazda3
2011– * Ford Ranger
2010– Ford Fusion
2010–2011 Mercury Milan
2012 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid
2009– Ford Escape
2014– Ford Transit Connect

Higher Compression 2.5 with the 12.3:1 CR Atkinson cycle 2.5's that just need cams (and requisite springs) to make power:

Mercury Milan 2010-2011 gasoline, 2.5L, Hybrid, (VIN 3, 8th digit)
Mercury Mariner 2009-2011 gasoline, Hybrid (2.5L, VIN 3, 8th digit)
Mazda Tribute 2009-2009 gasoline, Hybrid (2.5L, VIN 3, 8th digit)
Ford Fusion 2010-2012 gasoline, 2.5L, VIN 3 (8th digit, Hybrid)
Lincoln MKZ 2011-2012 gasoline, 2.5L (Hybrid), (VIN 3, 8th digit)
Ford Escape 2009-2012 gasoline, 2.5L, VIN 3 (8th digit, Hybrid)


With all this information it only leads to more questions, what exactly are the slight differences and what are the pro's and con's of each of the 2.5 variants....much like the Honda K engine there is one standout engine the 2006-2008 k24a2 (this too is debatable, but lets keep that to a different thread please). What is the 2.5 equivalent?

 

[Easter Bunny]

I don't mean to be a dick but I can sum up everything we know about the 2.5s as a forum for you

1. They exist
2. People swap them into speeds to save money

 

[jdab555]

I don't mean to be a dick but I can sum up everything we know about the 2.5s as a forum for you

1. They exist
2. People swap them into speeds to save money

To this point, keep in mind that Mazda / Ford chose this block for a boosted application for a reason, and chose to toss the 2.5L into their Altima analogues. The bean counters at Mazda and Ford would have mandated the 2.5L if it stood any chance of being a cost-reasonable substitute, rather than eat the cost of development and separate production lines for an entirely separate block for the souped up shitbox that is the Speed3/6.

 

[Easter Bunny]

It's cheaper to get a used one for people that need to rebuild

 

[Blak2012]

I don't mean to be a dick but I can sum up everything we know about the 2.5s as a forum for you

1. They exist
2. People swap them into speeds to save money

Naw, good straight to the point info! Keep it coming!
And your info may help the reader in determining a direction to take, but this threads purpose is to collaborate as much info possible for those wanting to build a strong foundation block. In example, with all the years these engines were made and the many names they are under, the manufacturer may have produced these engine block of different strengths, materials and thicknesses. Its easy to say "they all the same" when in reality the certain years blocks may have had more material around the main skirts but thinner deck surfaces and these particular blocks are known for blowing head gaskets or another could be cylinder wall differences, like in different years produced, the cylinder walls could be manufactured with out pressed in liner and went to "Plasma Transfer Wire Arc" or NikaSeal Plated cylinders which affects simple rebuild possibilities.....that sort of info is what im looking for.

 

[Blak2012]

It's cheaper to get a used one for people that need to rebuild

You are correct! A simple marketplace search for either 2.3l or 2.5l i find that the 2.5l are plentyful are typically cheaper than the 2.3l. For whatever reason why, who knows.

 

[Mtnbker3531]

You throw out an 800 HP number and mention the 2.5 block in the same sentence. To me this thought process doesn't add up.

You've been doing research and you've probably seen the same thing on power capability of the 2.5 motor. From the little I've read on the topic the consensus is the same as everyone else here has mentioned.

If the 2.5 block had some kind of an advantage you'd see the highest HP Speeds utilizing it. They don't they run sleeved blocks at that level.

Speed Perf has a 2.5 offering but from what I can tell it's a stroker kit with custom rods and pistons utilizing the MZR block not the Duratec 2.5 block.

The 2.5 Duratec motor is a cheap option to keep a Speed on the road at stock power levels IMO. That being said it was never designed to handle what the MZR was as has been stated by others here. Further more using a 2.5 at stock power levels probably won't have the same service life as the original MZR.

 

[Blak2012]

Thanks for that investigative observation! Its info like this that shows the obvious.

My point of the thread is to reveal the possibilities of what the manufacture has offered and if the manufacture produced a more desirable "beefier" block. Thats the direction I want to go. Given the amount of engines produced over the years, one of the blocks may have stood out better for extreme hp builds. Im hoping someone would chimed in with more specifics to the engine blocks attributes and not just "what works" or "whats been done".

Thanks again everyone for replying

 

[Awafrican]

I know the 2.5 has weaker pistons than the 2.3, believe cylinder wall thickness is also thinner, water jacket and oil passages are also smaller iirc. looking for threads for you where some of this was discussed.

this one has some info https://mazdaspeeds.org/index.php?threads/mzr-2-5-bottom-end-swap-08-ms3.12054/

 

[Mtnbker3531]

OP there is a member on the Mazdaspeed3 sub reddit with a user name of "BulletDust". He's not super active there but if you search his content you'll find some posts he made addressing this.

I think he is in Australia or something but he says he was a Mazda master tech for 20 ish years. He seems to have a wealth of technical knowledge about the MZR motor.

 

[drew10101010]

I want to see one taken apart. Just by looking at how it's built you can tell such as does it have a block girdle? Closed deck? Oil squirters? I've seen some non turbo blocks missing the turbo oil return port on the back of the block. Different intake manifolds. 2.5's are plastic, different throttle body position, coil packs..

 

[Easter Bunny]

Now the question is can you just use the block and forged crank of a 2.5 and the rest speed parts

 

[drew10101010]

This group might have the answers.


Here's a swap guide:
https://www.mazda3forums.com/threads/how-to-mazda-ford-2-5l-swap.692793/#/topics/692793